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Old 07-11-2008, 03:19 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
I think the shock of 20 million in a weekend would be a much different matter.

To take your metaphor extremely literally, theyr'e not entering my home. They're minding their own business, and I'm minding mine. They're not bothering me.
Its up to the government to handle it. I'm not going to go out and harass people trying to work.

If they are threatening my family or friends, thats a whole other thing.

But I dont believe very many of the illegal population are cold blooded criminals like the ones that pop out on the news all the time.

I know my attitude comes off of apathetic, but as a person surrounded by Mexican culture all my life, the change or whatever hasn't been as abrupt and traumatizing for me. I don't notice "more mexicans around" or anything. I have less to be angry about I guess.

The things that do anger me are things like gas prices, rising food prices, so much being spent on wars adding to our debt leading to our economic downturn. Those are things I feel angry about because some rich people are getting richer off of us. THOSE issues are affecting me.

I just don't have anger against people trying to work and make a living. If anything , I respect them more than the legal people living off welfare. Living in 20 bucks/month projects with brand new cars.

Maybe your'e right. Maybe if these people were "alien" to me, I would be more angry about the situation. But theyre not "alien" to me, and its easy for me to relate to them.



I acknowledge the problem of mass illegal immigration, but I think thats due to some flaws that need to be worked out. I'm not going to pin it on the people taking advantage of it to make a modest living that they couldnt have had otherwise.
Good post..I have TWO comments, if you're interested...

(1) This is America. If you're a citizen, then you ARE the government, in a sense. In the Third World, "el Gobierno" is that mysterious group of powerful folks who 'do things to us'. Here in America, the government is US. (May not SEEM like it, but 'We"..meaning you and me...are in charge here).

(2) You say you're not alarmed by "more Mexicans" because they're 'not so alien to you'. I agree, ande have mentioned this before. MUCH of the most vitriolic of the posts we see, IMHO, comes from regions of the US which have historically had VERY little Mexican 'presence'. Some of these areas have had practically NO immigrants at ALL for generations. SUDDENLY, they're exposed to Mexicans...and today, many of these Mexicans are illegals. It's a 'rude awakening', and a poor way to 'get to meet one another'.

Like you, I don't find Mexicans 'alien' either...I mostly just hate the "BS" of this whole argument.

Don't get me wrong..I haven't suddenly 'gone soft'...just wanted to comment on your points. Nice post.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:25 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Good post..I have TWO comments, if you're interested...

(1) This is America. If you're a citizen, then you ARE the government, in a sense. In the Third World, "el Gobierno" is that mysterious group of powerful folks who 'do things to us'. Here in America, the government is US. (May not SEEM like it, but 'We"..meaning you and me...are in charge here).

(2) You say you're not alarmed by "more Mexicans" because they're 'not so alien to you'. I agree, ande have mentioned this before. MUCH of the most vitriolic of the posts we see, IMHO, comes from regions of the US which have historically had VERY little Mexican 'presence'. Some of these areas have had practically NO immigrants at ALL for generations. SUDDENLY, they're exposed to Mexicans...and today, many of these Mexicans are illegals. It's a 'rude awakening', and a poor way to 'get to meet one another'.

Like you, I don't find Mexicans 'alien' either...I mostly just hate the "BS" of this whole argument.

Don't get me wrong..I haven't suddenly 'gone soft'...just wanted to comment on your points. Nice post.
But most of your beef is with those representing the illegals is it not?
I think most of the illegal immigrants in the country right now are of the same breed that you used to know.
But now, some groups are making demands for them, representing them. And theyre like, "hey, these guys want to get us some benefits? sure, why not.". You know, just basically going with the program.

I think most of the Mexican flag waving, bird flipping, and all the stuff that is offending American people, is mostly being done BY American people. Chicanos, college kids, whatever.


Not to say that illegal immigration isn't a problem. I just think a lot of this attitude isn't really coming from them.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:34 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
Even if it were allowed (which we all know we'd be gunned down in the streets if we attempted it) I can't imagine parading down the streets of Mexico waiving the American flag, demanding amnesty, jobs, human rights, civil rights, free education and healthcare while calling its citizens racist names, burning the Mexican flag and giving Mexico the finger.

Why such pride in and loyalty to a country that obviously devalues it's poor and doesn't love you back?
Cultural differences, pure and simple. What seems like an honest 'play' for sympathy and understanding to ONE culture, looks like infuriating childish nonsense to another.

Actually, Mexicans and Americans aren't all that far apart, culturally. If you think THIS is a 'mismatch', wait until the Afghans and the Iraqis get here in large numbers after their respective 'wars' are over. Talk about misunderstandings. We're going to need a LOT of patience to be able to accommodate some of these folks, to put it mildly. It should be interesting.
For a preview of 'things to come', check out the Muslim integration into Western European societies, as we speak. Makes OUR situation here seem pretty 'tame' by comparison.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:40 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
But most of your beef is with those representing the illegals is it not?
I think most of the illegal immigrants in the country right now are of the same breed that you used to know.
But now, some groups are making demands for them, representing them. And theyre like, "hey, these guys want to get us some benefits? sure, why not.". You know, just basically going with the program.

I think most of the Mexican flag waving, bird flipping, and all the stuff that is offending American people, is mostly being done BY American people. Chicanos, college kids, whatever.


Not to say that illegal immigration isn't a problem. I just think a lot of this attitude isn't really coming from them.
As I've said, it's worse on the forum than it is in my private life....I just have a real problem with "BS"....that's always been my thing. I've been in trouble pointing out "BS" since the nuns sent me home with a note to my parents at age 7. If you want to make a case to me, I'll always listen...but skip the "BS".

PART of the "BS", I have to be honest with you, is that we're supposed to "do something" about illegal immigration....yet at the same time, we're supposed to do it in a way that the illegals see as "fair". That's just not going to happen, and I don't think anyone really thinks it's possible.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:54 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,895,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Cultural differences, pure and simple. What seems like an honest 'play' for sympathy and understanding to ONE culture, looks like infuriating childish nonsense to another.

Actually, Mexicans and Americans aren't all that far apart, culturally. If you think THIS is a 'mismatch', wait until the Afghans and the Iraqis get here in large numbers after their respective 'wars' are over. Talk about misunderstandings. We're going to need a LOT of patience to be able to accommodate some of these folks, to put it mildly. It should be interesting.
For a preview of 'things to come', check out the Muslim integration into Western European societies, as we speak. Makes OUR situation here seem pretty 'tame' by comparison.
I agree that the cultures are miles apart. While I realize that there has always been mild corruption at all levels of American government, the last 7.5 years have left me speechless, the corruption, lack of integrity and flat out criminal behavior knows no bounds. In that respect we are beginning to resemble the 3rd world.

However, Mexicans and the citizens of other 3rd world countries have historically lived with, tolerated and expected nothing but corruption from their governments. Therefore, lawlessness is their way of life. Yet another reason we need to relieve America of as many illegal aliens as possible . . . no paths to anyplace other than where they came from.

I also think that we need to have a temporary moratorium on ALL immigration. American civilization, culture and sovereignty IMHO is hanging on by a thread and the distraction of trying to keep up with the burdens of millions of people here illegally is burying us as a people, a culture and a nation.

Afghans: I have a few neighbors from Afghanistan and many from Pakistan and India. My love for them knows no bounds. They are some of the most hard working, decent, humble, respectful, assimilating immigrants I have ever encountered.

Iraqis/Muslims: I have yet to encounter on a personal level, but if Detroit is the yardstick, we are in deep do-do

It's time to seal the border, turn out the lamp and leave the out to lunch sign up for at least a decade until we can get our country back on track.

Last edited by JDubsMom; 07-11-2008 at 04:13 PM..
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
I agree that the cultures are miles apart. While I realize that there has always been mild corruption at all levels of American government, the last 7.5 years have left me speechless, the corruption, lack of integrity and flat out criminal behavior knows no bounds. In that respect we are beginning to resemble the 3rd world.

However, Mexicans and the citizens of other 3rd world countries have historically lived with, tolerated and expected nothing but corruption from their governments. Therefore, lawlessness is their way of life. Yet another reason we need to relieve America of as many illegal aliens as possible . . . no paths to anyplace other than where they came from.

I also think that we need to have a temporary moratorium on ALL immigration. American civilization, culture and sovereignty IMHO is hanging on by a thread and the distraction of trying to keep up with the burdens of millions of people here illegally is burying us as a people, a culture and a nation.

Afghans: I have a few neighbors from Afghanistan and many from Pakistan and India. My love for them knows no bounds. They are some of the most hard working, decent, humble, respectful, assimilating immigrants I have ever encountered.

Iraqis: I have yet to encounter on a personal level, but if Detroit is the yardstick, we are in deep do-do

It's time to seal the border, turn out the lamp and leave the out to lunch side up for at least a decade until we can get our country back on track.
I disagree with shutting off all immigration--------that would do more harm than good i.e. servicemen bringing back wives from overseas, orphans from war zones, political refugees, etc.

Now: if we were discuss going back to pre 1965 immigration quotas-----that I can get behind.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:16 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,895,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I disagree with shutting off all immigration--------that would do more harm than good i.e. servicemen bringing back wives from overseas, orphans from war zones, political refugees, etc.

Now: if we were discuss going back to pre 1965 immigration quotas-----that I can get behind.
Maybe with very few exceptions, such as the servicemen and carefully screened political refugees, but other than a small number, IMHO we need a temporary halt to immigration until we can gain some sense of control over the state of this country. I have a feeling that we are on very shaky ground in terms of our sovereignty and economic condition.
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:27 PM
 
8,649 posts, read 14,870,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Ladies and gentleman, the non-racist anti-illegal!

Can we get some applause?
I think this is what the OP is getting at...

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006...exico12712.htm


"Therefore, abortion is illegal in cases of pregnancy through incest, as defined by Mexican law, since the law defines incest as consensual sex, not rape. In most of Mexico, the age of consent for sexual activity is 12, and only in Mexico state is it over 14. This means that the crime of statutory rape in much of Mexico only applies to girls who in many cases are too young to become pregnant."

Even Mexican law seems to think it is okay...So I guess when they come here thay think what's good for Mexico is good enough for the U.S.A..
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:42 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
.

Why such pride in and loyalty to a country that obviously devalues it's poor and doesn't love you back?
VERY good question...and speaks volumes about the mysteries of the human mind. Some guys just 'like their women trashy'...and some women just 'like their men to be jerks'....and some citizens just 'like their countries to be unfair', I guess. Some people can only respect that which they fear. If I could explain it, I'd be Dr. Phil.

Over in the middle east, I suspect MOST folks like their coffee strong, their women compliant, and their leaders brutal. Makes you wonder how ANYONE would expect to ever 'wade' in there with the idea in mind of 'spreading democracy'.

"Whacking" a dangerous tyrant, I can almost understand. Go in, do the job, and leave. But 'bringing democracy' to people? Who says they WANT it? What some people want is a REAL leader, who can beat up on, and intimidate, all the OTHER leaders in the neighborhood. Why? Guess that's what they're comfortable with.

How can illegals "love" and romanticize a country in which they were marginalized, kept in poverty, and practically forced to leave? They can love it, because that's what they know. That's where their memories lie, and that's where their heart is. This shouldn't surprise us..but, if it's causing us problems, we should take steps to 'control' the situation, not sit and wonder why THEY don't. Why SHOULD they, really? It's up to us.

And YES, you're correct in that we ARE slowly becoming more like the Third World, even as they become more like us. Sadly, the Third World isn't only about delicious cooking or exciting dance steps, or interesting art work. The Third World is also about massive corruption, severe 'class divisions', a strong sense of ethnic pride, and a weak sense of nationhood. It ALSO includes a well-deserved disdain for all aspects of the legal system (which, in MOST of the Third World, doesn't deserve to be respected). I fear that this may be turn out to be one of the most harmful effects of illegal immigration....the ongoing public spectacle of the laws of the land being flouted, all the way up to high levels of government. Our kids are seeing this, and it will be remembered. Don't agree with the law? Fine...ignore it.

NOT a very good way to run a society, I'm afraid..not in the "First World", at least.

Last edited by macmeal; 07-11-2008 at 05:59 PM..
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:58 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,895,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houston3 View Post
I think this is what the OP is getting at...

Mexico: Rape Victims Denied Legal Abortion (Human Rights Watch, 7-3-2006)


"Therefore, abortion is illegal in cases of pregnancy through incest, as defined by Mexican law, since the law defines incest as consensual sex, not rape. In most of Mexico, the age of consent for sexual activity is 12, and only in Mexico state is it over 14. This means that the crime of statutory rape in much of Mexico only applies to girls who in many cases are too young to become pregnant."

Even Mexican law seems to think it is okay...So I guess when they come here thay think what's good for Mexico is good enough for the U.S.A..
Nail meet hammer . . . . . That is exactly what I meant.
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