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Old 07-16-2008, 12:53 PM
Status: "Make America the Great Joke Again" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Denver
9,060 posts, read 15,470,148 times
Reputation: 5288

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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll listen to those who advocate having a prosperous nation with open borders, as soon as I hear of a bank with open vaults....or a supermarket which operates on the 'honor system'....or a country club with open membership...or a doctor whose fees are 'whatever's fair'.....or when the maintenance crew dismantles the fence around the White House.
Ok that is on your time then. Obviously all things are not equal, a subcomponent of a larger group can have a more defined rulebase. A bank may need tighter infrastructure than the government that rules over it, same goes for supermarket, there are different logical groups with different rules within a larger economy. The world economy is highly dynamic these days.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:55 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
By allowing people in that work for less, the companies would have stayed in America (or have better chance to) instead of leaving for other countries.

What the book states is: "don't call them illegal, make them legal" don't build the wall, let us work together so we can both profit.
Milton Friedman once remarked that you could not have open borders and a society with generous benefits (paraphrase). If you have open borders, unskilled, poorly educated people will flock to your country to work and take advantage of the benefit system. Almost half of wage earners pay no income tax at all. I am led to suspect that what these immigrants on the bottom rung of the economic ladder pay in sales tax, property tax and user fees is simply not going to cover the cost of educating their children, free medical care, WIC, section 8 housing and so forth. With a continued influx of people who take more than they contribute, sooner or later these benefit systems will collapse.

If you are advocating that the US adopt Third World status in order to keep jobs here, I disagree. Not all jobs are exportable for one thing. And you are neglecting the fact that infrastructure is much cheaper in places overseas. Also, companies in Third World countries do not always observe our standards of labor safety and environmental concerns. Even if you lowered the living standard of LA to that of Bangladesh, it is still going to be more costly for a business to operate her rather than in Indonesia.

Open borders simply are not going to work. Unless you don't mind living in a place that resembles Haiti, that is.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll listen to those who advocate having a prosperous nation with open borders, as soon as I hear of a bank with open vaults....or a supermarket which operates on the 'honor system'....or a country club with open membership...or a doctor whose fees are 'whatever's fair'.....or when the maintenance crew dismantles the fence around the White House.
Absolutely! I saw this guy on TV a couple of months ago. My mom and I were laughing so hysterically, we almost made ourselves sick.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:00 PM
Status: "Make America the Great Joke Again" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Denver
9,060 posts, read 15,470,148 times
Reputation: 5288
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Milton Friedman once remarked that you could not have open borders and a society with generous benefits (paraphrase). If you have open borders, unskilled, poorly educated people will flock to your country to work and take advantage of the benefit system. Almost half of wage earners pay no income tax at all. I am led to suspect that what these immigrants on the bottom rung of the economic ladder pay in sales tax, property tax and user fees is simply not going to cover the cost of educating their children, free medical care, WIC, section 8 housing and so forth. With a continued influx of people who take more than they contribute, sooner or later these benefit systems will collapse.

If you are advocating that the US adopt Third World status in order to keep jobs here, I disagree. Not all jobs are exportable for one thing. And you are neglecting the fact that infrastructure is much cheaper in places overseas. Also, companies in Third World countries do not always observe our standards of labor safety and environmental concerns. Even if you lowered the living standard of LA to that of Bangladesh, it is still going to be more costly for a business to operate her rather than in Indonesia.

Open borders simply are not going to work. Unless you don't mind living in a place that resembles Haiti, that is.
What the book advocates is allowing free movement of LEGAL labor, that will pay taxes and become part of the country rather than pushing them into illegal status and not paying taxes.

As far as lowering standard of living, ever wonder why ours is so high? Could it be inflated unnaturally, virtually and waiting to fall? I think that is being answered as we speak with a recession.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:15 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Absolutely! I saw this guy on TV a couple of months ago. My mom and I were laughing so hysterically, we almost made ourselves sick.
Guess I missed that one..is someone stealing my ideas..or am I stealing his? WHAT guy on TV?....
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Central NJ, USA
218 posts, read 392,426 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Milton Friedman once remarked that you could not have open borders and a society with generous benefits (paraphrase). If you have open borders, unskilled, poorly educated people will flock to your country to work and take advantage of the benefit system. Almost half of wage earners pay no income tax at all. I am led to suspect that what these immigrants on the bottom rung of the economic ladder pay in sales tax, property tax and user fees is simply not going to cover the cost of educating their children, free medical care, WIC, section 8 housing and so forth. With a continued influx of people who take more than they contribute, sooner or later these benefit systems will collapse.

If you are advocating that the US adopt Third World status in order to keep jobs here, I disagree. Not all jobs are exportable for one thing. And you are neglecting the fact that infrastructure is much cheaper in places overseas. Also, companies in Third World countries do not always observe our standards of labor safety and environmental concerns. Even if you lowered the living standard of LA to that of Bangladesh, it is still going to be more costly for a business to operate her rather than in Indonesia.

Open borders simply are not going to work. Unless you don't mind living in a place that resembles Haiti, that is.

A brilliant set of observations, actually.

There is a sequence of problems with the model that Mach has laid out.

The first is the idea that, in order to retain "jobs," we need to compete in labour costs with countries like China and India. In order to do this, he (and the esteemed writer for the WSJ) suggest we throw open the border and allow semi and un-skilled labourers to flood in, and thus drive down our wages. This is a corollary to the canard that immigrants "do the jobs Americans won't."

In fact, let me ask - what is the functional difference between your job being done by an uneducated labourer in Guangzhou or one in the US? It still works out to a race to the bottom. If I were an unskilled or semi-skilled worker, it would make little difference to me that I was replaced by a Guatemalan here or a Chinese worker there. Either way, I need to find something else to do.

And as others point out, the COST of the low-wage worker in the latter case is bourne by the taxpayers in the US as opposed to those in China.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Guess I missed that one..is someone stealing my ideas..or am I stealing his? WHAT guy on TV?....
My bad. The author of the book, Jason Riley.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:39 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
Reputation: 8519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
By allowing people in that work for less, the companies would have stayed in America (or have better chance to) instead of leaving for other countries.

What the book states is: "don't call them illegal, make them legal" don't build the wall, let us work together so we can both profit.
And this benefits American workers..... how?

China can open a factory in the middle of Kansas, bus in 2000 Chinese citizens to work there, and to what benefit to America? Will the taxes pay for the support of the Chinese workers through schools, infrastructure, and police?
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:41 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
Reputation: 8519
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll listen to those who advocate having a prosperous nation with open borders, as soon as I hear of a bank with open vaults....or a supermarket which operates on the 'honor system'....or a country club with open membership...or a doctor whose fees are 'whatever's fair'.....or when the maintenance crew dismantles the fence around the White House.

EXACTLY.

On an analagous note, I wonder if the author would be willing to allow me to move into HIS house, and "work around the house" to earn my room and board? No permission from him needed, of course.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:41 PM
Status: "Make America the Great Joke Again" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Denver
9,060 posts, read 15,470,148 times
Reputation: 5288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron von Costume View Post
A brilliant set of observations, actually.

There is a sequence of problems with the model that Mach has laid out.

The first is the idea that, in order to retain "jobs," we need to compete in labour costs with countries like China and India. In order to do this, he (and the esteemed writer for the WSJ) suggest we throw open the border and allow semi and un-skilled labourers to flood in, and thus drive down our wages. This is a corollary to the canard that immigrants "do the jobs Americans won't."

In fact, let me ask - what is the functional difference between your job being done by an uneducated labourer in Guangzhou or one in the US? It still works out to a race to the bottom. If I were an unskilled or semi-skilled worker, it would make little difference to me that I was replaced by a Guatemalan here or a Chinese worker there. Either way, I need to find something else to do.

And as others point out, the COST of the low-wage worker in the latter case is bourne by the taxpayers in the US as opposed to those in China.
The functional difference is a worker, working in the US is contributing to the product of the US.

Its not a matter of Americans not wanting these jobs, it is a choice of a company needing lower cost workers (something Americans are not used to doing) here or moving that work to another country and losing our product.
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