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Old 07-16-2008, 11:55 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 6,002,750 times
Reputation: 332

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This topic has come up a bit on this board about the educability of Latino students vs. Asian students.

This is an article from the LA Times discussing trends among both groups in a High School that draws students from neighborhoods that are home to Mexican-Americans, Latino immigrants, and Asian immigrants.
It doesn't give a definite answer to why, but I thought it was an interesting read.

I also post it because some people need to see a human face of immigrants and Latinos.

Try to keep the discussion civil and refrain from unnecessary attacks.

Why do Asian students generally get higher marks than Latinos? - Los Angeles Times
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:08 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,046,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
This topic has come up a bit on this board about the educability of Latino students vs. Asian students.

This is an article from the LA Times discussing trends among both groups in a High School that draws students from neighborhoods that are home to Mexican-Americans, Latino immigrants, and Asian immigrants.
It doesn't give a definite answer to why, but I thought it was an interesting read.

I also post it because some people need to see a human face of immigrants and Latinos.

Try to keep the discussion civil and refrain from unnecessary attacks.

Why do Asian students generally get higher marks than Latinos? - Los Angeles Times
Great read, very interesting thanks for sharing that.

And for the record, it is not immigrants that I don't want, it is not latinos that I don't want it is illegals. And then only because there are so many with more coming. We just no longer have the resources.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:09 AM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,290,538 times
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It surely isn't genetic since most Latinos in California's working class or even middle class suburbs have substantial indigenous blood (and therefore, racially speaking, are part Mongoloid just liks Asians). And the Caucasian blood? Probably doesn't make much of a difference because when controlling for socio-economic status, Caucasians and Asians have very similar academic achievement. If genetics really mattered, mestizo Latinos would be scoring HIGHER than Caucasians when controlling for socio-economic status, but that just isn't the case.

My theory is that it's cultural. Asian parents push their children in school like no group I have ever observed. The parents of the European-American, Middle Eastern, and Latin American kids are content with them just doing their homework and then going off to the mall or to play sports or video games. The Asian parents often will not even allow these activities until all of the homework is done AND extra school work is completed (like reading books in Mandarin, doing extra math problems, etc.) Many people criticize this as being extreme and over-the-top but it seems to work for many Asian kids. Parents of ANY ethnic/national/racial group can be like the Asian parents, but it seems like a much lower proportion of "other" parents actually carry through with being so demanding in their children's academic lives.

I don't think this is much of a Latino versus Asian issue as opposed to an Asians versus everybody else issue. I could start talking about the OTHER extreme (African-American culture and how it impacts education), but I don't want to derail this thread. What do you guys think of my above theory?

Last edited by Marlin331; 07-17-2008 at 12:30 AM..
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:25 AM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 6,002,750 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Great read, very interesting thanks for sharing that.

And for the record, it is not immigrants that I don't want, it is not latinos that I don't want it is illegals. And then only because there are so many with more coming. We just no longer have the resources.
Understood.

I can agree that the effect of mass illegal immigration is a problem to be dealt with.
But when one learns more about illegal immigrant individuals, it becomes a really complex issue because its not them vs. us, or good guys vs. bad guys.

But I think most people can agree that illegal immigration needs to at least be curbed before it goes out of control, but hopefully without people losing human decency in the process.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:41 AM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 6,002,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
It surely isn't genetic since most Latinos in California's working class or even middle class suburbs have substantial indigenous blood (and therefore, racially speaking, are part Mongoloid just liks Asians). And the Caucasian blood? Probably doesn't make much of a difference because when controlling for income, Caucasians and Asians have very similar academic achievement.

My theory is that it's cultural. Asian parents push their children in school like no group I have ever observed. The parents of the European-American, Middle Eastern, and Latin American kids are content with them just doing their homework and then going off to the mall or to play sports or video games. The Asian parents often will not even allow these activities until all of the homework is done AND extra school work is completed (like reading books in Mandarin, doing extra math problems, etc.) Many people criticize this as being extreme and over-the-top but it seems to work for many Asian kids. Parents of ANY ethnic/national/racial group can be like the Asian parents, but it seems like a much lower proportion of "other" parents actually carry through with being so demanding in their children's academic lives.

I don't think this is much of a Latino versus Asian issue as opposed to an Asians versus everybody else issue. I could start talking about the OTHER extreme (African-American culture and how it impacts education), but I don't want to derail this thread. What do you guys think of my above theory?
That is the most logical way to put it.

In the past on this board, I admit I have gotten overly defensive over the issue. But I can't deny the large part culture has to play in this.
Mexican culture for its emphasis on hard work ethic vs. education, but also the self-image many Mexican-Americans hold of themselves.

I thought it was pretty sad how in that school, the Asian kid who barely gets by at school is said to be "Mexican at heart", and the Mexican kid who does good is said to be "Asian at heart". This being said by Mexican kids! Its like a joke to us.
To them, its not very "Mexican" to be good at school. It's kind of like a lot of Chicanos give in to their own stereotype.


But from what I see, as the Latino immigrant families become more Americanized, more kids are going off to college. Times are changing, and a degree is becoming more and more necessary to make a good living. People, including Latinos, are going to have to adapt.

I have a class right now where we are split into groups, each to make some kind of survey and graph. One group is doing theirs on "Parent's Education Level". Being that all but 4 or 5 people in the class are Mexican-American/Latino, I'm interested to see how that turns out.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:50 AM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,290,538 times
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I'll be interested in knowing the results of that, too.

Edit: I've gotta share this with you. I went to a highschool with only about 3 of 4 kids of who were Mexican or Mexican-American (to my knowledge). Though the couple I knew were from middle class families and did well in school, people in school nonetheless used to joke with them that they weren't very Mexican. It wasn't uncommon for kids to say to other kids who they perceived to be lazy or stupid, "What, are you Mexican or something? Stupid beaner." And before anyone asks, "Mexican" wasn't being substituted for "Hispanic" or "Latino;" many of these insults came from Hispanic kids and were directed at either Anglo kids or at other non-Mexican Hispanic kids. While people rarely would talk smack about black kids in public (though they occasionally did behind their backs and outside of school), it was always open season to talk smack about Mexicans.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Southern California
15,088 posts, read 16,969,042 times
Reputation: 10278
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
It surely isn't genetic since most Latinos in California's working class or even middle class suburbs have substantial indigenous blood (and therefore, racially speaking, are part Mongoloid just liks Asians). And the Caucasian blood? Probably doesn't make much of a difference because when controlling for socio-economic status, Caucasians and Asians have very similar academic achievement. If genetics really mattered, mestizo Latinos would be scoring HIGHER than Caucasians when controlling for socio-economic status, but that just isn't the case.

My theory is that it's cultural. Asian parents push their children in school like no group I have ever observed. The parents of the European-American, Middle Eastern, and Latin American kids are content with them just doing their homework and then going off to the mall or to play sports or video games. The Asian parents often will not even allow these activities until all of the homework is done AND extra school work is completed (like reading books in Mandarin, doing extra math problems, etc.) Many people criticize this as being extreme and over-the-top but it seems to work for many Asian kids. Parents of ANY ethnic/national/racial group can be like the Asian parents, but it seems like a much lower proportion of "other" parents actually carry through with being so demanding in their children's academic lives.

I don't think this is much of a Latino versus Asian issue as opposed to an Asians versus everybody else issue. I could start talking about the OTHER extreme (African-American culture and how it impacts education), but I don't want to derail this thread. What do you guys think of my above theory?
I think there is truth to that based on my experience. My Asian Mom was very supportive of the education of my brother and I. In the meantime, my Latino Dad was, "Meh..." He wanted us to get more involved in sports but to no avail. My Mom would do any reasonable thing to insure our success. As a 'reward' for doing well in school, it was not unusual for me to ask for...wait for it...a book. One Christmas my gift was a bookshelf - really! Anything my brother or I needed for school we would get it.

Anyway, I don't have anything against my Dad or my Latino background. He was a hard worker, very inventive, and artistic. I think that if he tried harder in school he could have been an engineer because he was alway drafting projects around the house and then building it. He was raised in an environment where education was minimal and a man's focus was to get a job and support the family. Providing for the present, so to speak, appeared to be his mindset while my Mom appreciated education as a guarantee for providing in the future.

Interestingly, the day I graduated from college (the second in the entire - THE ENTIRE - family to do so), my Mom stated that her Dad would be so proud (he died when she was 10). When my sons or daughters graduate from college, I want them to understand that they're doing it not just for themselves, they are doing it for me, my Mom and Dad, my Grandfather, and the rest of our family.

Respect, study hard, and work hard.

And we will rise...
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Old 07-17-2008, 01:02 AM
 
Location: Southern California
15,088 posts, read 16,969,042 times
Reputation: 10278
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
That is the most logical way to put it.

In the past on this board, I admit I have gotten overly defensive over the issue. But I can't deny the large part culture has to play in this.
Mexican culture for its emphasis on hard work ethic vs. education
, but also the self-image many Mexican-Americans hold of themselves.

I thought it was pretty sad how in that school, the Asian kid who barely gets by at school is said to be "Mexican at heart", and the Mexican kid who does good is said to be "Asian at heart". This being said by Mexican kids! Its like a joke to us.
To them, its not very "Mexican" to be good at school. It's kind of like a lot of Chicanos give in to their own stereotype.


But from what I see, as the Latino immigrant families become more Americanized, more kids are going off to college.
Times are changing, and a degree is becoming more and more necessary to make a good living. People, including Latinos, are going to have to adapt.

...
Good points in bold...
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Old 07-17-2008, 01:10 AM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 6,002,750 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
I think there is truth to that based on my experience. My Asian Mom was very supportive of the education of my brother and I. In the meantime, my Latino Dad was, "Meh..." He wanted us to get more involved in sports but to no avail. My Mom would do any reasonable thing to insure our success. As a 'reward' for doing well in school, it was not unusual for me to ask for...wait for it...a book. One Christmas my gift was a bookshelf - really! Anything my brother or I needed for school we would get it.

Anyway, I don't have anything against my Dad or my Latino background. He was a hard worker, very inventive, and artistic. I think that if he tried harder in school he could have been an engineer because he was alway drafting projects around the house and then building it. He was raised in an environment where education was minimal and a man's focus was to get a job and support the family. Providing for the present, so to speak, appeared to be his mindset while my Mom appreciated education as a guarantee for providing in the future.

Interestingly, the day I graduated from college (the second in the entire - THE ENTIRE - family to do so), my Mom stated that her Dad would be so proud (he died when she was 10). When my sons or daughters graduate from college, I want them to understand that they're doing it not just for themselves, they are doing it for me, my Mom and Dad, my Grandfather, and the rest of our family.

Respect, study hard, and work hard.

And we will rise...
Your description of your dad reminds me of mine.
My dad did the whole cholo thing for a long time. Dropped out of high school, and ended up joining the army as a teenager(which probably saved him).
He didnt do very much in education, but that man will read any book. When he wasn't working 14 hour shifts, he was sleeping, watching tv, or reading. Every week he'd make a trip to the library.

I never did well in school, I was too busy trying to kick it. My grades were low, but my testing scores would always be high, especially in English. I got that from him because he passed on that love of reading to me.

I too think my father could have had a lot of potential, but he ended up making a living off hard work instead of his mind.
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,665,827 times
Reputation: 3785
Kudos too all of you for this very insightful thread.

Let me interject that with stereotypical Blacks there is an additional cultural fissure at work as well.

For some arcane reason; (maybe due to the matriarchal quality of many AA families) it is much more acceptable for Black women to excel in school whereas many black males are accused (by their same race peers) of acting 'White' for doing the same thing.

The cold reality is one seems to see many more Black women in college as of late.

I believe that either Benicar or JDubsMom can chime in here and confirm/deny it.
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