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Old 07-21-2008, 09:57 PM
 
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Anyhow, over 600 Mexicans have been murdered in a town near me, killed by other Mexicans. Several Mexicans have been killed here, one 19 year old just the other day, no one thinks it's racism, they usually assume it's a drug deal gone wrong.
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Old 07-21-2008, 09:58 PM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Where did you read that this illegal was "brown" and not "white"? I didn't see any mention of his coloring, and were blacks getting beat up in this same city or by these same people? Certainly there are blacks living up there, if it's just about skin color then there should be more incidents against them.
Very very very few Blacks. Did you see when I posted the town's demographics? It was something like 97 percent white, not including Latinos.
And it doesn't matter if the Latino is light complected, many people will still consider them "other than white".
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Old 07-21-2008, 10:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Anyhow, over 600 Mexicans have been murdered in a town near me, killed by other Mexicans. Several Mexicans have been killed here, one 19 year old just the other day, no one thinks it's racism, they usually assume it's a drug deal gone wrong.
Your point is?
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Old 07-21-2008, 10:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Very very very few Blacks. Did you see when I posted the town's demographics? It was something like 97 percent white, not including Latinos.
And it doesn't matter if the Latino is light complected, many people will still consider them "other than white".
What is interesting about this -- we had a German immigrant murdered by a Mexican immigrant here and no one cared one iota. Not one post about the murder here. You can bet that was every bit as racially motivated as this one might have been. Or the murders in Los Angeles of blacks that are murdered by Mexicans that are very clearly race murders.

It doesn't matter since it was just a white man who actually served in the military killed by a Mexican. That's the height of political correctness I guess, it only matters when a Mexican is killed.
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Old 07-21-2008, 10:14 PM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
What is interesting about this -- we had a German immigrant murdered by a Mexican immigrant here and no one cared one iota. Not one post about the murder here. You can bet that was every bit as racially motivated as this one might have been. Or the murders in Los Angeles of blacks that are murdered by Mexicans that are very clearly race murders.

It doesn't matter since it was just a white man who actually served in the military killed by a Mexican. That's the height of political correctness I guess, it only matters when a Mexican is killed.
Then explain all the press about Mexicans who have killed Blacks, and not the other way around.

Explain why you know who Jamiel Shaw is, and not who Kaitlyn Avila is.
(not that I want to revisit that tired old thread.)
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Old 07-21-2008, 10:14 PM
 
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AMC: We obviously grew up in very different places. To start, you grew up in an area that was overwhelmingly mestizo; I grew up in an area that was overwhelmingly white. Out there, Mexicans didn't talk about race; back east in Florida, we DID talk about it and if we didn't, it was noted in an unspoken kind of way.

Hispanic people didn't unify in a group (we were Spanish, Cuban, Argentinian, Colombian, Venezuelan, etc. not just Mexican); they certainly didn't unify along racial lines either. Most Hispanic people were white (although there were a substantial number of mixed and straight up black Hispanics.. no Amerindians though) and racially identified as such. Sure, there was a bit of a connection when you found out someone could speak Spanish or ate some of the same foods that you liked to eat, but no Hispanic of one race would speak of himself as "the same" in a racial context as a Hispanic of another race. It just didn't happen.

I myself (especially in the Miami forum) speak of neighborhoods that are 90% white with half of residents being of Hispanic ancestry. I find that it's a more accurate and precise way to describe a neighborhood's true racial and ethnic character. It doesn't help me much to say that somewhere like eastern Washington Heights in NYC is "overwhelmingly Hispanic" because when I walk around there there is almost no one who looks like me. I may sound similar to the Dominicans there when I open my mouth and speak fluent Spanish, but I am pretty clearly out of place as non-poor-looking white person walking around in a largely poor neighborhood that is almost all mulatto and black.

I wonder if the reason why your friends "racially identified with each other" is because all of them were varying degrees of mestizo and were not from privileged backgrounds. I bet you that white Mexicans from rich neighborhoods in Monterrey and DF (Mexico City) would NOT racially identify with dark-skinned mestizos. Sure, maybe they are all Mexican, but Mexican is not a race. It's a nationality, maybe an ethnicity, but NOT a race. People can identify with how they want but I think that Mexican-American kids using the term "Mexican" in a racial sense would be in for a rude awakening if they ever lived in a white neighborhood/area of the country of Mexico itself.

I think it's great that people of different colors identify with each other, but be honest in the reason WHY you identify with each other. It may be language, it may be culture, it may be something else.. however, it just isn't race. "Race" seems to just be a blanket term that's used to legitimize the bond of unity that you feel with the people with whom you grew up when you just can't express a true reason WHY you identify with those people. It's similar to how the word "racism" is often used for the sake of convenience when the words "prejudice" and "discrimination" are much more fitting.
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Old 07-21-2008, 10:29 PM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
AMC: We obviously grew up in very different places. To start, you grew up in an area that was overwhelmingly mestizo; I grew up in an area that was overwhelmingly white. Out there, Mexicans didn't talk about race; back east in Florida, we DID talk about it and if we didn't, it was noted in an unspoken kind of way.

Hispanic people didn't unify in a group (we were Spanish, Cuban, Argentinian, Colombian, Venezuelan, etc. not just Mexican); they certainly didn't unify along racial lines either. Most Hispanic people were white (although there were a substantial number of mixed and straight up black Hispanics.. no Amerindians though) and racially identified as such. Sure, there was a bit of a connection when you found out someone could speak Spanish or ate some of the same foods that you liked to eat, but no Hispanic of one race would speak of himself as "the same" in a racial context as a Hispanic of another race. It just didn't happen.

I myself (especially in the Miami forum) speak of neighborhoods that are 90% white with half of residents being of Hispanic ancestry. I find that it's a more accurate and precise way to describe a neighborhood's true racial and ethnic character. It doesn't help me much to say that somewhere like eastern Washington Heights in NYC is "overwhelmingly Hispanic" because when I walk around there there is almost no one who looks like me. I may sound similar to the Dominicans there when I open my mouth and speak fluent Spanish, but I am pretty clearly out of place as non-poor-looking white person walking around in a largely poor neighborhood that is almost all mulatto and black.

I wonder if the reason why your friends "racially identified with each other" is because all of them were varying degrees of mestizo and were not from privileged backgrounds. I bet you that white Mexicans from rich neighborhoods in Monterrey and DF (Mexico City) would NOT racially identify with dark-skinned mestizos. Sure, maybe they are all Mexican, but Mexican is not a race. It's a nationality, maybe an ethnicity, but NOT a race. People can identify with how they want but I think that Mexican-American kids using the term "Mexican" in a racial sense would be in for a rude awakening if they ever lived in a white neighborhood/area of the country of Mexico itself.
Yeah, thats the only problem with an umbrella term like Hispanic. The countries in Latin America are all different racial wise.
But when youre in America, its so much more diverse that youre going to group with the people most like you.

Mexico is one thing, and the different countries of Latin America are another.

But the people in the rich neighborhoods of DF who wouldn't identify with darker skinned people are a minority. I have known people who are from DF, or Sinaloa, or whatever part of Mexico, people who were form Tijuana, and we all saw each other as the same even if some were darker than others. I have never met rich White people from Mexico, and I assume thats because they have it good in Mexico and are so few compared to the rest.

I'm not sure how other Latino cultures are, because I dont know. But from my experience, I dont know whole Mexican familes that are all white, or whole familes that are full indian, or anthing else. Like my family, its very mixed.

I lauged when someone on here talked about a family that threw a party one day for the dark skinned members of the family, and a party for light skinned family members the next.

I thought about how random that would be if my family did the same thing. The idea of it was ridiculous.

I'm positive you know more about the other Hispanic cultures. But I can only speak on Chicanos and my family in Mexico.
Its interesting to know how things are in Miami though. From what I hear, the Latino experience there is much different than the Latino experience in Los Angeles or the West.
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Old 07-21-2008, 10:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Yeah, thats the only problem with an umbrella term like Hispanic. The countries in Latin America are all different racial wise.
But when youre in America, its so much more diverse that youre going to group with the people most like you.

Mexico is one thing, and the different countries of Latin America are another.

But the people in the rich neighborhoods of DF who wouldn't identify with darker skinned people are a minority. I have known people who are from DF, or Sinaloa, or whatever part of Mexico, people who were form Tijuana, and we all saw each other as the same even if some were darker than others. I have never met rich White people from Mexico, and I assume thats because they have it good in Mexico and are so few compared to the rest.

I'm not sure how other Latino cultures are, because I dont know. But from my experience, I dont know whole Mexican familes that are all white, or whole familes that are full indian, or anthing else. Like my family, its very mixed.

I lauged when someone on here talked about a family that threw a party one day for the dark skinned members of the family, and a party for light skinned family members the next.

I thought about how random that would be if my family did the same thing. The idea of it was ridiculous.

I'm positive you know more about the other Hispanic cultures. But I can only speak on Chicanos and my family in Mexico.
Its interesting to know how things are in Miami though. From what I hear, the Latino experience there is much different than the Latino experience in Los Angeles or the West.
It's easier to understand some of your writing on this topic now that you've told me that you've literally never met a Mexican family that is non-mixed white or non-mixed Amerindian. I guess everyone you knew truly WAS mestizo and I guess that's why they identified as such and could make a case for being "of the same (mixed) race."

I have known quite a few mixed Latin American families and yes, of course they identify with each other. They're family! However, it would be silly for 7/8 white Dionisio to speak of himself of the "same race" as his 1/2 black abuela Olga. I've never heard that because mixed families I have known acknowledged that they are mixed unless none of the immediately family members have much visible non-white blood (and that is another post altogether, lol)

My main point is that you can identify in a variety of ways with other people, and "race" is only one of them. You speak of Mexicans from Sinaloa, DF, Sonora, Chiapas, all identifying as "Mexican." However, they aren't really talking about race; they're talking about nationality and (maybe) ethnicity. Don't people from Florida, New York, Kansas, and Idaho all identify with being "American" ? It wouldn't be fair to take that fact and then say that it must mean that they all identify on a racial level. JDubsMom, AzBear, and GuyPinestra all can identify on this forum as being "anti-illegal" but they don't identify on a racial level because they recognize that they are of different races and racial mixtures. Same as me and you; we might identify as being the two people most commonly labeled on this forum as "pro-illegal" but we both know that we are not of the same race. We can identify as friends, but not as racially the same because that would just be inaccurate.
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Old 07-21-2008, 11:00 PM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
It's easier to understand some of your writing on this topic now that you've told me that you've literally never met a Mexican family that is non-mixed white or non-mixed Amerindian. I guess everyone you knew truly WAS mestizo and I guess that's why they identified as such and could make a case for being "of the same (mixed) race."

I have known quite a few mixed Latin American families and yes, of course they identify with each other. They're family! However, it would be silly for 7/8 white Dionisio to speak of himself of the "same race" as his 1/2 black abuela Olga. I've never heard that because mixed families I have known acknowledged that they are mixed unless none of the immediately family members have much visible non-white blood (and that is another post altogether, lol)

My main point is that you can identify in a variety of ways with other people, and "race" is only one of them. You speak of Mexicans from Sinaloa, DF, Sonora, Chiapas, all identifying as "Mexican." However, they aren't really talking about race; they're talking about nationality and (maybe) ethnicity. Don't people from Florida, New York, Kansas, and Idaho all identify with being "American" ? It wouldn't be fair to take that fact and then say that it must mean that they all identify on a racial level. JDubsMom, AzBear, and GuyPinestra all can identify on this forum as being "anti-illegal" but they don't identify on a racial level because they recognize that they are of different races and racial mixtures. Same as me and you; we might identify as being the two people most commonly labeled on this forum as "pro-illegal" but we both know that we are not of the same race. We can identify as friends, but not as racially the same because that would just be inaccurate.
I see what you mean, but like you said, I think race comes up a lot less because most of us are of basically the same mix. We don't really put attention to what degree one is of the other(which I think would be VERY difficult to pinpoint).

Even those Mexicans from those places don't really speak about Mexican as just nationality. I've been referred to as Mexican by them when Ive never lived in Mexico.

You are right though, views on the subject may be a lot more different among other cultures that are less mixed.
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,181 posts, read 9,818,850 times
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Anyhow, over 600 Mexicans have been murdered in a town near me, killed by other Mexicans. Several Mexicans have been killed here, one 19 year old just the other day, no one thinks it's racism, they usually assume it's a drug deal gone wrong.
Excellent point. At this juncture, we’re dealing with preliminary information, only. The public is not privy to any information that could jeopardize the investigation and prosecution of this case. Other than the snippets from the available news articles, everything else (our opinions) is purely conjecture.

I agree, it is quite possible this was gang related, given the pervasiveness of gang activity in this country. Gangs are no longer strictly an urban malady infecting big cities, and have now emerged in small town America as well. It has been argued ad nauseam that gang activity, including fatalities, need not be racially motivated, and may in fact simply involve disputes over turf or drugs.

The existence of racial slurs in this incident, in and of itself, does not indicate the impetus for the attack was racism. Anyone who believes racial slurs are not standard operating procedure with Black and Hispanic gangs in LA would have to be extremely naive. My gang knowledge is limited; however, even I realize profanity and racial slurs are requisites for acceptance in this subculture.
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