Anti-immigrant euphoria sweeping the nation is unfair and immoral (visa, birth, illegals)

[RandomU]

Originally Posted by jimjames3000

1. Anti-immigrant proponents say “another amnesty would not be good for America”. They fail to explain why and how……

Because the last amnesty encouraged MORE Illegals to come. Another amnesty would just encourage still more to come in hopes that a third amnesty will happen.

If car thieve are stealing cars in my town and I say, “OK were going to forgive all those who broke the law in the past”, Do you think the town would see MORE car thieves come in or FEWER? Now if after this amnesty 3 times as many car thieves come in, and we pass another amnesty what would happen?

Originally Posted by jimjames3000

2. If you look at a lot of the “pro-illegal” comments and the people who post them, they are just one-liners, filled with a loathsome love for “criminals”. Note the statements are one-liners and lack intelligent debate.

Fixed it for you.

The point is the same and applies to your side as well.

Originally Posted by jimjames3000

3. On the economy, it's not illegals who are to blame. Illegals are not running the Federal Reserve and the US Chamber of Commerce (nor the banking industry)

It’s no single factor, however, Illegals contribute to the problem.

Originally Posted by jimjames3000

4. There are anywhere between 10 to 25 million illegals in the country. This number is not deportable and they cannot even fit in the current justice system facilities (jails) that we have. So the people baying for mass deportations are deluded. One report states that it would take 60,000 flights flying daily to ship everyone back home or cost hundreds of billions of dollars to investigate, arrest, incarcerate, process and ship ALL the illegals.

No need to pay for them to go. Pass laws that punish employer and make it difficult or impossible for them to work here and they self deport.

Please read the boards (Search Oklahoma and Arizona, or just Email Arizona Bear. Yes AB, I know you'll kick my rear if he does ) and check the news and you will see Arizona and Oklahoma are having good success at this. NO need to arrest most of them. Just remove the thing which brings most here. Arrest those who don’t go willingly or who are criminals and you quickly get the problem under control.

Originally Posted by jimjames3000

5. That illegals are “taking jobs” from Americans is not entirely accurate. The top of the crème American jobs are not for the unskilled. They require college degrees and above to fill and therefore are still filled by Americans.

But they are taking jobs from the middle and underclass, many of whom are minorities and IMMIGRANTS WHO LEGALLY CAME HERE and are the most vulnerable! They still take the jobs way from the Americans who are not HIGHLY skilled. The poor and those without a college education. Do you not care about those who aren’t wealthy or well educated?

Originally Posted by jimjames3000

6. E-verify-If implemented tomorrow, over 10 million people will suddenly be without jobs and no way to feed their families or survive. Crime would skyrocket and social upheaval would be rampant. I don’t know of a society that can remain stable with 10 million or more people who suddenly are without a livelihood. Cities like San Antonio, Miami, Houston and LA would experience social upheavals not unlike the LA riots. Washington and the general US public also cannot tolerate a 10%+ national unemployment rate.

What happened in Oklahoma does not support your contention. Pro Illegal forces estimate Oklahoma's Anti Illegal Immigrant law caused 30,000 Illegals to leave. Did I miss the news reports of the riots?

Even if it might be a concern it is no problem because as with Arizona it goes in stages. Everyone doesn’t Everify over night. They do it over a period of months. A few hundred illegals unemployed per week in a city doesn’t cause riots. It causes a few hundred to go back home. Over time that adds up and soon your problem is gone.

Originally Posted by jimjames3000

7. The US economy is fanned almost 100% by consumerism. That means it depends entirely on you and me's shopping especially for luxuries. The removal of the 10 million plus purchasing power from the economy would wreak havoc and wildly suppress the consumer confidence index.

That is open to debate. Trying to get two economists to agree is laughable. There are studies that support your view. There are studies that oppose it. We’ll have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by jimjames3000

8. The current housing market crisis-This was caused by over-construction and traditionally high credit requirements. To get rid of excess inventory, the lenders decided to depress the credit requirements and started lending to people with sub-prime credit who eventually defaulted causing the system to crash. The banking industry is also reeling because of the same thing. Legalizing immigrants would actually jumpstart the housing market because many immigrants who are now living underground would come into the economic mainstream (not to mention that they are already in the social mainstream)

That is open to debate. Trying to get two economists to agree is laughable. There are studies that support your view. There are studies that oppose it. We’ll have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by jimjames3000

9. The US economy’s 3-4% annual growth still generates thousands of “odd jobs” which Americans do not want and will not do (that is why over 90% of all illegals have jobs!)

This is a myth. Americans have done these jobs and will do them again. Many Americans however WILL NOT do them for a substandard wage. Lets take cleaning a hotel room in San Francisco. An Illegal will do it for say $6 an hour. An American will want $10 an hour. Hilton pays the Illegal $6 leaving the American out of a job. Enforce our laws and now Hilton will pay the American, most likely poor or lower middle class, $10 and Americans will do the work. Some American will do pretty much ANY job if you pay them a decent wage.

Don't believe me. You want Proof. Watch a TV show called "DIRTY JOBS". WATCH IT. WATCH WHAT AMERICANS WILL DO IF YOU PAY THEM DECENT MONEY!!!

Originally Posted by jimjames3000

I could go on……but lets look at the proposed solutions

No need to look at your solutions because any form of Amnesty is unfair to all those who are waiting to get into the country by legal means.
Additionally, Your measures will encourage more illegal to come in hopes of getting on board the gravy train of AMNESTY PART THREE in 15 Years.

The solution is simple.

1) Enforce the laws and pass new laws to fine/jail employers and remove the jobs. They will self deport.
2) Arrest those who remain.

Simple and relatively painless.

Random

[malamute]

Originally Posted by amc760

An example of the weak argument.

How is the term "undocumented worker" wrong? How is it propaganda? Its a neutral term. About as neutral as it gets. But its not evil sounding enough, huh?
Are they working? yes.
are they undocumented? yes.
are they immigrants? yes...but illegal immigrants!
yeah..so theyre immigrants who came here illegally.. No! theyre illegal immigrants! Theres a HUGE difference!

But theyre not undocumented workers! It..it doesnt sound bad enough! Aliens is better!

Who cares? They all mean the same thing.

This post was pretty on point, but its not going to sway any opinion. People are going to keep hating, without admitting they are hating, and they are going to be doing it based on hearsay and news reports instead of anything that has directly affected them.

A great number of illegal aliens aren't working at all. Many are not "undocumented" as they have stolen documents. Many pregnant border crossers never had any intention of working, their reason for coming here to have their babies was just so they could retire for good. Illegals under age 16 being smuggled in certainly aren't coming in to work since they aren't of legal age to work.

Drug traffickers and dealers can be illegal aliens, but you wouldn't really want to call them workers.

Illegal alien sets them apart from resident aliens, and you don't see resident aliens all up in arms about being called that.

[malamute]

Originally Posted by RandomU

Because the last amnesty encouraged MORE Illegals to come. Another amnesty would just encourage still more to come in hopes that a third amnesty will happen.

If car thieve are stealing cars in my town and I say, “OK were going to forgive all those who broke the law in the past”, Do you think the town would see MORE car thieves come in or FEWER? Now if after this amnesty 3 times as many car thieves come in, and we pass another amnesty what would happen? This is Human nature.




If you look at a lot of the “pro-illegal” comments and the people who post them, they are just one-liners, filled with a loathsome love for “criminals”. Note the statements are one-liners and lack intelligent debate.

Fixed itt for you.



It’s no single factor, however, Illegals contribute to the problem.



Pass laws that punish employer and make it difficult or impossible for them to work here and they self deport. Please read the boards (Search Oklahoma and Arizona, or just Email Arizona Bear) and check the news and you will see Arizona and Oklahoma are having good success at this. NO need to arrest most of them. Just remove the thing which brings most here. Arrest those who don’t go willingly or who are criminals and you quickly get the problem under control.



But they are taking jobs from the middle and underclass, many of whom make up the minorities in America and are the most vulnerable! They still take the jobs way from the Americans who are not HIGHLY skilled. The poor and those without a college education. Do you not care about those who aren’t wealthy or well educated?




Oklahoma does not support your contention. Pro Illegal forces estimate Oklahoma's law caused 30000 Illegals to leave. Did I miss the news reports of the riots?

Evn if it might be a concern it is no problem because as with Arizona it goes in stages. Everyone doesn’t Everify over night. They do it over a period of months. A few hundred illegals unemployed per week in a city doesn’t cause riots. It causes a few hundred to go back home. Over time that adds up and soon your problem is gone.




That is open to debate. Trying to get two economists to agree is laughable. There are studies that support your view. There are studies that oppose it. We’ll have to wait and see.




That is open to debate. Trying to get two economists to agree is laughable. There are studies that support your view. There are studies that oppose it. We’ll have to wait and see.



This is myth Americans have done these jobs and will do them again. Many Americans however WILL NOT do them for a substandard wage. Lets take cleaning a hotel room in San Francisco. An Illegal will do it for say $6 an hour. An American will want $10 and hour. Hilton pays the Illegal the $6 leaving the American out of a job. Enforce are laws and now Hilton will pay the American $10 and Americans will do the work. Some American will do pretty much ANY job if you pay them a decent wage.




No need to look at your solutions because any form of Amnesty is unfair to all those who are waiting to get into the country by legal means.
Your measures will encourage more illegal to come in hopes of getting on board the gravy train of Amnesty #3 in 15 Years.

The solution is simple

Enforce the laws and pass new laws to fine/jail employers and remove the jobs. They will self deport.
Arrest those who remain.

Simple and relatively painless.

Random

Good post.

It really makes no sense to move law breakers ahead of those who have respected our laws.

The USA has the highest number of legal immigrants of any country in the world, the problem is many would like to come, the entire world cannot come.

Immigration must be lawful, orderly and fair, including fair to the American worker and not just a way for the corporations to get rich quick by having unlimited supplies of dirt cheap workers. Immigration should be open to people of many countries, not just Mexico and Central America.

Immigration should select for those people who truly wish to become American, who wish to learn the language, culture, and history of this country and who show a willingness to abide by our laws.

And really it's a slap in the face for all those would-be immigrants who would find themselves forever shut out because millions of lawbreakers were rewarded with an amnesty and then allowed to start bringing in millions more of their extended families.

Any illegal who truly wishes to have legal status here should return home and start over the right way. That is certainly an option open to them as long as they've committed no violent crime or been deported. They have to stop thinking that having broken the laws entitles them to instant legality and that those following the legal process are nothing more than suckers.

[suzie02]

Originally Posted by malamute

Any illegal who truly wishes to have legal status here should return home and start over the right way. That is certainly an option open to them as long as they've committed no violent crime or been deported.

How???????????

[RandomU]

Originally Posted by suzie02

How???????????

The same way they got here but in reverse. They then apply like millions of others who have legally immigrated to America and wait there turn.

Random

[r601020]

Like most people who really don't want to (or can't) discuss this without distortions, when your apologist argument fails, and it always does, you resort to smears of bigot, racist, hate speech, etc.

Pat yourself on the back if it makes you feel better.

I didn't think this was going to be a discussion, but hope springs eternal, so I gave it the benefit of a doubt. I don't have anything else to add to this thread until somebody actually wants to talk about it. Cheers.

[nonconformist]

Always, always, always repeat the word ILLEGAL.
Dont let anyone confuse the issue with the bogus statement "your anti-immigrant"
Every tax payer should be enraged at the outright theivery going on.
High level officials of both parties are to blame as well.
When will working Americans wake up and see that $$$ is being stolen from them.
This is not a race issue, this is a culture clash, the culture of the "gimme, gimme" vs the "Hey what gives? I work for my paycheck?" Illegal immigrants are no different than welfare frauds, people who cheat and steal.

[The Dissenter]

Originally Posted by miamiman

I fail to see why so many people are against illegal immigration. It seems to me to be a form of masked racism.

Okay i'm racist. I'm racist against my HS/college peers not being able to find summer jobs b/c illegals have taken those jobs for lower wages. I'm racist against having higher car insurance rates here in DC b/c of the overwhelming presence of illegals. I'm racist against having to live near an MS-13 hotspot with is helped by illegal immigration. I'm racist against having 10-20 illegals in an apartment doing what they please when they please. D$*^ i'm a racist!!

I'm an African-American. I've spent most of my life in Virginia. Most of my family is from rural North Carolina and East Texas. Trust me, we know all about racism and how illegals are being treated has less to do with racism and more to do with their victim mentality and self-serving attitudes.

[ArizonaBear]

The pro illegal crowd is growing ever more desperate every day--------hence them using words like 'racism', etc.

That dog don't hunt. Try again.

Suffice to say: if we were being inudated (sp) by millions of blond haired, blue eyed, Nordic White Swedes-------I would be just as 'prejudiced' against 'em if they were illegal immigrants never mind that I look Scandinavian.

As for the word 'illegal alien'-------take that up with the US government, it is their official term to describe those lawbreaker losers.

[evilnewbie]

I smell a troll.... its obvious the OP is wrong... I think he is just trying to troll the thread...