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Old 07-27-2008, 10:55 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Definition of lynching is a mob killing someone, usually done by lynching.
As much as you refuse to believe it, this aint that different.

Lest we forget,


Not to say Mexicans have experienced as much discrimination in America as Blacks, but history like that is too often ignored.

It doesn't have to be a Black person to be a lynching. Just like it doesnt have to be a Black victim to make it a hate crime.
This is an impressive list of wrongs, and even ONE lynching is too many. Yet your point is not altogether clear. For example, you state that 597 people were lynched in an 80-year period (1848-1928). That's 7 or 8 per year...but by whom, exactly? And how significant a number is that? Frankly, I don't know. I'd have to know a lot more of how people in those days were brutalized, slaughtered, and murdered, before such figures meant much. For example, how many people in the SW were murdered by bandits in those days, from across the border? I haven't the slightest idea...but it may have been a HUGE number, much larger than any lynchings.

Your most recent figure is for the period ending in 1930. Again, interesting and disturbing.... but how about the figures for Mexicans being lynched in more recent times? How about 1950 ?...or 1960 ?...or 2000?

Not trying to take away from your post, but that was a LONG time ago. I don't see much connection between a Mexican being lynched in (for example) 1902, and anything remotely having to do with illegal immigration..or even 'anti-Mexican hate crimes'...in 2008. Your post is disturbing, and something to think about....but not germane to this issue, I'm afraid...
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Old 07-27-2008, 11:03 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,996,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
This is an impressive list of wrongs, and even ONE lynching is too many. Yet your point is not altogether clear. For example, you state that 597 people were lynched in an 80-year period (1848-1928). By whom, exactly? And how significant a number is that? Frankly, I don't know. I'd have to know a lot more of how people in those days were brutalized and murdered, before such figures meant much.

Your most recent figure is for the period ending in 1930. Again, interesting and disturbing.... but how about the figures for Mexicans being lynched in more recent times? How about 1950 ?...or 1960 ?...or 2000?

Not trying to take away from your post, but that was a LONG time ago. I don't see much connection between a Mexican being lynched in (for example) 1902, and anything remotely having to do with illegal immigration..or even 'anti-Mexican hate crimes'...in 2008. Your post is disturbing, and something to think about....but not germane to this issue, I'm afraid...
the thesis statement, sir

Quote:
It doesn't have to be a Black person to be a lynching. Just like it doesnt have to be a Black victim to make it a hate crime. This was a lynching and hate crime
The refutation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Obviously, our definitions of "lynching" differ. When I think of a lynching, I envision someone hanging by a noose from a tree. I have seen enough pictures of black men who were lynched. This was no lynching.
And you already read the support. Complete ese? I mean essay?
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Old 07-27-2008, 11:14 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
the thesis statement, sir



The refutation:



And you already read the support. Complete ese? I mean essay?
OK, I think we all agree it was a hate crime (most violent crimes are pretty hateful)....and somewhere, you've found support for calling it a 'lynching'...very well, a lynching it is.(I suppose if an illegal can be an 'immigrant', then a fatal beating can be a 'lynching'...so be it).

My point is "OK, what does THIS have to do with illegal immigration"?.....and, more to the point. "is this even remotely indicative of the way 'Mexicans'.....even illegal ones...are typically treated in the US"? I think the answers to THOSE questions are "nothing"..and "no". THat was my argument.
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Old 07-27-2008, 11:21 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,996,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
OK, I think we all agree it was a hate crime (most violent crimes are pretty hateful)....and somewhere, you've found support for calling it a 'lynching'...very well, a lynching it is.(I suppose if an illegal can be an 'immigrant', then a fatal beating can be a 'lynching'...so be it).

My point is "OK, what does THIS have to do with illegal immigration"?.....and, more to the point. "is this even remotely indicative of the way 'Mexicans'.....even illegal ones...are typically treated in the US"? I think the answers to THOSE questions are "nothing"..and "no". THat was my argument.
What does it have to do with illegal immigration?
In a town where tension has been building against hispanic immigrants(illegal or otherwise), the hate and tension may have led to a killing of a man by a mob, or in other words, a LYNCHING. Is this just the beginning, as Benicar suggested?

Is it indicative of the way "mexicans", even illegal ones, are "typically" treated in the US?
Incidents like this, as well as many many many comments made on this forum ARE indicative of the potential of violence stemming from the illegal immigration debate. On Illegals, Mexicans, Latinos, people selling oranges on the offramp, whatever.

Like Benicar said, there is a lot of anger and frustration in Middle class American (from what, I wonder? high gas prices? high food costs? having to press 1 on the telephone?).

Why do anti-illegals feel people are being "pushed" to doing this? Sounds like justification to me.
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Old 07-27-2008, 11:46 PM
 
1,818 posts, read 2,735,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
What does it have to do with illegal immigration?
In a town where tension has been building against hispanic immigrants(illegal or otherwise), the hate and tension may have led to a killing of a man by a mob, or in other words, a LYNCHING. Is this just the beginning, as Benicar suggested?

Is it indicative of the way "mexicans", even illegal ones, are "typically" treated in the US?
Incidents like this, as well as many many many comments made on this forum ARE indicative of the potential of violence stemming from the illegal immigration debate. On Illegals, Mexicans, Latinos, people selling oranges on the offramp, whatever.

Like Benicar said, there is a lot of anger and frustration in Middle class American (from what, I wonder? high gas prices? high food costs? having to press 1 on the telephone?).

Why do anti-illegals feel people are being "pushed" to doing this? Sounds like justification to me.
You are so right AMC and it is scary to think that all of this frustration and anger is growing. When a person is devalued as a human being whether you are against illegals or as we are called Pro illegals, only because we see them as human beings looking for a better life, they still not illegal to me for coming here to hopefully have that chance. I have met many "illegals", have talked to many (some do speak English) and have never met one that was anything but thankful, that someone would give them water and some food.
I do agree with you on how blacks were discriminated and now the Mexicans have taken their place. I also agree with you that not all of the anti illegals are as hate filled as their counterparts, it just seems so foreign that anyone could really hate to the degree that is on this forum, and to top it off the ones that are against the illegals have as much hate towards us, the ones of us that don't share their attitude.
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:47 AM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,792,255 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyone View Post
You are so right AMC and it is scary to think that all of this frustration and anger is growing. When a person is devalued as a human being whether you are against illegals or as we are called Pro illegals, only because we see them as human beings looking for a better life, they still not illegal to me for coming here to hopefully have that chance. I have met many "illegals", have talked to many (some do speak English) and have never met one that was anything but thankful, that someone would give them water and some food.
I do agree with you on how blacks were discriminated and now the Mexicans have taken their place. I also agree with you that not all of the anti illegals are as hate filled as their counterparts, it just seems so foreign that anyone could really hate to the degree that is on this forum, and to top it off the ones that are against the illegals have as much hate towards us, the ones of us that don't share their attitude.
There are a few posters on here who stick to just being anti-illegal, but we do have a lot on here who go way past that to being against anything "spanish".
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:51 AM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,792,255 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Anger and frustration over what??

I'm far from a rich person, and I'm not exactly from a great area, AND I'm also a "tax paying citizen", but I can't understand this misery you people are going through.

And a lynching being a prelude? If this is a prelude to some kind of widespread violence against illegals, you can bet that it not will be a common mentality among all Americans.

It's won't be Americans against illegals.
It would end up being a bunch of nutjob Americans against illegals.

Just like MeCha doesn't speak for all of us Mexican-Americans, you guys don't speak for all of us Americans.

You guys are getting too comfortable assuming you speak for Americans. Those of us who regularly battle with you guys are just as American.

Its "your taxes" or "your country", its OURS.
Very well said AMC, some just can't comprehend that not ALL americans have the same views they have.
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Old 07-28-2008, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Definition of lynching is a mob killing someone, usually done by lynching.
As much as you refuse to believe it, this aint that different
.

Lest we forget,


Not to say Mexicans have experienced as much discrimination in America as Blacks, but history like that is too often ignored.

It doesn't have to be a Black person to be a lynching. Just like it doesnt have to be a Black victim to make it a hate crime.
At no time did I imply that ONLY black people can be, or have been, lynched. I simply mentioned the fact that I have seen pictures of black men who had been lynched; thus, I have a frame of reference vis-a-vis the act of “lynching.” Why must EVERY discussion I have with you involve the comparison of Blacks to Mexicans?

I am well aware of what constitutes a “lynch mob.” To qualify as a lynch mob, there must first be a “mob.” A mob indicates a LARGE group. How do three people qualify as being a mob? If three guys were standing outside your house talking, would you call the cops and report a “mob” congregating outside your house? If three people were marching down a street carrying picket signs, do you think the MSM would send a camera crew to capture this “mob” protest? Would they send out the National Guard to contain this “mob” of three? Let’s not reduce this to the ridiculous. Group? Yes. Mob? No.

I also did not explicitly nor implicitly state that ONLY black people can be victims of a “hate” crime. Nor did I marginalize discrimination experienced by Mexican-Americans. As a matter of fact, go back to page 5 at the beginning of this discourse, and count the number of times I mentioned “Mexican.” You will discover that I mentioned Mexican a total of ZERO times. Again, your comments are based on your fixation with Black vs. Mexican, and are not remotely relevant to my comments.

In spite of macmeal’s attempts to “reason” with you through the use of logic, you refuse to listen. Everything MUST relate to your ethnicity and the struggles of your ethnic group relative to black people. In your mind, it’s almost as though there’s a competition between Blacks and Mexicans for a discrimination “prize” -- as though you are compelled to present evidence of Mexicans being abused and killed to ensure that blacks aren’t the only group perceived as being mistreated in this country.

It is certainly your prerogative to believe this was a lynch mob murder; as it is my prerogative to believe otherwise. The illegal alien in San Francisco killed three US. citizens -- so I guess on your internal scorecard, justice has been served.
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Old 07-28-2008, 08:21 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In spite of macmeal’s attempts to “reason” with you through the use of logic, you refuse to listen. Everything MUST relate to your ethnicity and the struggles of your ethnic group relative to black people. In your mind, it’s almost as though there’s a competition between Blacks and Mexicans for a discrimination “prize” -- as though you are compelled to present evidence of Mexicans being abused and killed to ensure that blacks aren’t the only group perceived as being mistreated in this country.
,.
Thanks, Benicar. I'm just about 'tapped out' in the logic department, I'm afraid. Some 20 million people (1/10 of their whole country) have now moved illegally into their neighbor country....a country which itself is suffering a recession. Yet people continue to be amazed, surprised, diasppointed, and dismayed that this should cause any 'anger' or even an occasional outburst of 'hate' in the 'recieving country'. I just don't get it, I guess. Seems pretty much a textbook-level cause of anger to ME. How people can deny this obvious fact is simply beyond me. Try moving your family into your neighbor's back yard...or even parking your car in his driveway. Let me know if you find this provokes any anger..it just MAY.

At any rate, this thread points out that in one remote area, this 'anger' resulted in a grisly murder...some have termed it a 'lynching'. We all agree it's a terrible thing. The 'bad guys' should, and will, be made to pay for their crime. Out of 20 million (or so) illegals, one was murdered. Meanwhile, 19,999,999 other illegals did NOT get murdered, there's very little chance they WILL be, and every possibility that they'll be joined in the coming years by millions more. It seems to me that the 'lynching' is only a tiny part of this whole story.

But what do I know? THanks, though, for your support. A few of us "get it", and that's OK...
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Old 07-28-2008, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Thanks, Benicar. I'm just about 'tapped out' in the logic department, I'm afraid. Some 20 million people (1/10 of their whole country) have now moved illegally into their neighbor country....a country which itself is suffering a recession. Yet people continue to be amazed, surprised, diasppointed, and dismayed that this should cause any 'anger' or even an occasional outburst of 'hate' in the 'recieving country'. I just don't get it, I guess. Seems pretty much a textbook-level cause of anger to ME. How people can deny this obvious fact is simply beyond me. Try moving your family into your neighbor's back yard...or even parking your car in his driveway. Let me know if you find this provokes any anger..it just MAY.

At any rate, this thread points out that in one remote area, this 'anger' resulted in a grisly murder...some have termed it a 'lynching'. We all agree it's a terrible thing. The 'bad guys' should, and will, be made to pay for their crime. Out of 20 million (or so) illegals, one was murdered. Meanwhile, 19,999,999 other illegals did NOT get murdered, there's very little chance they WILL be, and every possibility that they'll be joined in the coming years by millions more. It seems to me that the 'lynching' is only a tiny part of this whole story.

But what do I know? THanks, though, for your support. A few of us "get it", and that's OK...
True, true, true!
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