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Old 01-26-2007, 05:11 PM
 
56 posts, read 224,700 times
Reputation: 35

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momark+1 keep it up and join the appleseed
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Lake Norman Area
1,431 posts, read 3,570,540 times
Reputation: 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Sure. Do something. But do something smart.

Arming a bunch of angry locals and setting them loose is not only entirely ineffective in the long run, it is potentially dangerous.

Try living in a border state overun with illegals and the gangs and you will be singing a different tune.

Maybe Im wrong, but Im pretty sure that Minuteman dont carry weapons.

The organization certainly isnt "arming a bunch of angry locals and setting them loose." Do some research.

Id be more worried about a bunch of armed angry illegals rather than my fellow citizens trying to watch the border.
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Old 01-27-2007, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Maine
15,072 posts, read 19,713,491 times
Reputation: 17183
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
Definition of Vigilante: somebody who punishes lawbreakers personally rather than relying on the legal authorities (Encarta)
What is Encarta? That's a really terrible definition.

Again, that's why I said that the Minutemen are indeed vigilantes in the historic sense, not in the Charles Bronson Deathwish sense.

The word vigilante comes from "vigil," and specifically the "Vigilance Committee" of 1900s San Francisco. When San Francisco boomed, it became a hotbed of crime that would've made 1920s Chicago run home screaming to its mama. Business owners got fed up and the law's inability to deal with the problem and formed the "Vigilance Committee." Basically a group of concerned citizens who organized and took the law into their own hands. In that regard, the Minutemen are vigilantes.

I understand their anger and ire. But they're making the problem worse. They aren't working toward any sort of permanent solution.
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Old 01-27-2007, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Maine
15,072 posts, read 19,713,491 times
Reputation: 17183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina_native View Post
Try living in a border state overun with illegals and the gangs and you will be singing a different tune.
I grew up in New Mexico. I was turned down for jobs because the employer thought I was the wrong ethnicity or because they would rather hire cheap illegal labor. I know this is a problem. But we've got to find a solution that works. Organizing into teams to go out and hunt illegal aliens is a disaster waiting to happen. Yes, I know they mean well, but this is a world of hurt waiting to happen, both for the Minutemen and the illegals.

The Minutemen would do a lot more good if they'd go around their towns and picket and protest all the businesses who keep hiring illegals.
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Old 01-28-2007, 12:25 AM
 
9,716 posts, read 12,938,315 times
Reputation: 3315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
I've actually grown rather bored of discussing it. How many Illegal Alien discussion topics are there on the board now? A dozen?

There are 926,793 discussions on this board right now. No matter what anyone says, the topic switches to illegal aliens almost immediately... Well, not quite, but I'm close.

You and I and most ordinary people come up with solutions that cost businesses money. This won't happen under the current administration. They are pro-business.

What's funky about this "pro-business, anti-tax" administration is that someone has to pay for these people somewhere. If businesses won't pay for them, then your taxes are going to have to pay for them. It's up to taxpayers to decide how they want to pay for them. You may be paying low personal taxes now -- but whoo! Have they got a bill waiting for you to pay! This president might say "That's okay Mrs. Bockmeister! We want you to have your money!" The next president (or the one after that) is going to have to say "Mrs. Bockmeister? You ran up this very large bill under President Bush's administration and we now have to ask you to pay it! Plus the interest!"

So, there is no free ride. Right now businesses save a lot of money not having to hire legal people and hiring illegals instead. Eventually someone is going to have to pay the costs of this.
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Old 01-28-2007, 08:55 AM
 
7,139 posts, read 12,890,687 times
Reputation: 2315
They are of course heroes and patriots. They may not have much power now, but at least they will be in place when the Mass Invasion occurs, and it is coming. Because a foolish and blinded government is allowing it. You think Bush is bad? Wait til the PC Crowd gets in.... Always looking for a place to hide....
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Old 01-28-2007, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 11,892,295 times
Reputation: 2000001281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
What is Encarta? That's a really terrible definition.

Again, that's why I said that the Minutemen are indeed vigilantes in the historic sense, not in the Charles Bronson Deathwish sense.

The word vigilante comes from "vigil," and specifically the "Vigilance Committee" of 1900s San Francisco. When San Francisco boomed, it became a hotbed of crime that would've made 1920s Chicago run home screaming to its mama. Business owners got fed up and the law's inability to deal with the problem and formed the "Vigilance Committee." Basically a group of concerned citizens who organized and took the law into their own hands. In that regard, the Minutemen are vigilantes.

I understand their anger and ire. But they're making the problem worse. They aren't working toward any sort of permanent solution.
No, they are not vigilantes. Regardless of how you try to historically paint it.
Perhaps Webster's definition might clear this up for you:
"A member of a group of volunteers that without authority assumes police powers, as pursuing and punishing criminal suspects".
The Encarta (online) definition was: "somebody who punishes lawbreakers personally rather than relying on the legal authorities"
So they say it in different but similar ways and make the same point. It may be a "terrible" definition, but it doesn't change the fact that the Minutemen are not vigilantes.
Give me examples of where they meet the definition and show that they meet the criteria for the label and I'll change my mind.
Even your example above doesn't support your statement regarding the Minutemen.
Where have the Minutemen taken the law into their own hands "in the historic sense"? They do not accost or physically stop illegal migrants, they do not trespass on private land, they simply watch and then report illegal migrants to the legal authority, i.e. the Border Patrol to take action.
You responded regarding the Minutemen to Carolina Native above with this ludicrous statement: "Arming a bunch of angry locals and setting them loose is not only entirely ineffective in the long run, it is potentially dangerous"
You are making unsubstantiated statements and clearly do not know, or simply ignore, the reality of what the Minutemen are. It's true in Arizona that they are allowed by law to carry firearms for their own protection and some in the Minuteman project apparently do. Name one time though in the years that they have patrolled the border that the Minutement have shot an alien migrant? The Minutemen are not allowed by law to arrest or detain potential illegal immigrants, and any such action is forbidden by the group's organizers. The project's goal is to survey the area using planes and binoculars, and to alert the appropriate authorities and follow suspected illegal immigrants until they are detained.
Even your statement "I understand their anger and ire. But they're making the problem worse. They aren't working toward any sort of permanent solution" is unsupported. How are they making the problem worse? As far as not working toward any permanent solution, how do you judge that? They are focusing attention where the government isn't and forcing the government's failure to be exposed in the public eye. They also have immensely helped the Border Patrol intercept and send back illegals. How is that making the problem worse? It makes no sense what you've stated and is unsupported by fact.
You haven't got a case I'm afraid Mark S.

Last edited by MoMark; 01-28-2007 at 11:43 AM..
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Old 02-11-2007, 01:06 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
1,459 posts, read 4,040,439 times
Reputation: 876
Rep. Kyrsten Sinema (D) Phoenix : house bill 2286 got shot down.


http://wehategringos.com/whg/?p=1327#comments (broken link)
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Old 02-11-2007, 06:07 PM
 
Location: South Bay, California
1,701 posts, read 5,846,862 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina_native View Post
Id be more worried about a bunch of armed angry illegals rather than my fellow citizens trying to watch the border.
How do you know their armed and angry? It might be the other way around. Maybe.
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