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Old 07-29-2008, 10:44 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,783,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I disagree. I think that if you graduate from a California high school as an illegal alien, you should be entitled to in-state tuition. I considered UCLA for law school and would not have minded paying out-of-state tuition for a year while an "illegal alien" who attended both high school and college in California got the in-state tuition rate. Becoming educated is an important part of integration; I imagine educated people are more likely to eventually legalize their residency status and I don't think we are doing any good disallowing California "illegal alien" students from taking advantage of in-state tuition rates.
I thought we *needed* illegals to do the hard work low paying jobs that no one else wants to do, but come to find out we need them to send them to college at reduced rates because they really don't want to do the hard work low paying jobs either.

Now we know they believe they are entitled to have the taxpayers put them through college, that they believe they deserve a college education more than Americans or legal foreign students.
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:56 PM
 
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Sense of entitlement? Where are you getting this? The average eighteen year old "illegal alien" who is applying to a UC school for college was brought to California by his parents - by no choice of his own, mind you - and grew up, learned English, and attended secondary school in California. This kid doesn't feel like he deserves in-state tuition any more than his high school classmates whose parents also raised them in California.

For the record, the "Illegals do jobs that Americans won't do!" argument is NOT one of the foundations of my position on illegal immigration. I speak of illegal aliens being absorbed into the economy and when I say "economy" I mean all types of jobs and not just construction and maid service. I grew up with a few "illegal aliens" who went to college (having become legal) and have become productive, proud American citizens.
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Old 07-29-2008, 11:03 PM
 
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I believe that all foreign students should be expected to follow the same laws. Someone whose parents broke the law should not be rewarded for that -- anymore than a bank robbers children should be rewarded for their parent's crimes. Just because someone has been breaking a law for a long time shouldn't entitle them to something others don't get.

I wouldn't expect that I could sneak into Mexico, be working and living there illegally and then expect my children would be given all the same rights as Mexican students -- who in fact get free college.
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Old 07-29-2008, 11:12 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,285,808 times
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The reason why we disagree on this is that I'm willing to forgive the violation of a law if the long-term consequences of ignoring or forgiving that violation appear to be more favorable than the long-term consequences of recognizing it. Applied to this situation, I think it's potentially more beneficial to California to give these students in-state tuition than to risk them not fulfilling their potential by not attending college at all. I think California should look past the "illegal" part if the benefits in increased productivity and decreased need for social services outweigh the costs of giving these kids in-state tuition. I'm really choosing practicality over principle here, and that angers a lot of people. That's why I consistently disagree with a lot of people on this forum when talking about this issue.
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Old 07-30-2008, 05:47 AM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,796,426 times
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Kris Kobach is a joke ... he lost the hazleton case, kansas instate tuition case and will lose this one also.
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Old 07-30-2008, 05:50 AM
 
Location: Missouri
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We do not owe the illegals anything, not even a damn education, no matter what age or grade they are. PERIOD!!!!
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,827,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
While I agree that we don't "owe" illegal aliens in-state tuition rates in the same way that we "owe" them access to a public primary and secondary education (which the US Supreme Court has declared to be a pseudo fundamental right), I believe that we should provide illegal aliens who have graduated from California high schools with California in-state tuition benefits. Post-secondary education is an effective way to assure economic (to a great degree) and cultural (to a lesser degree) assimilation into this country, and I believe that we are putting ourselves at a disadvantage by discouraging in-state college attendance via refusing in-state tuition rates. Why discourage able-minded and motivated individuals from attending college? People speak of illegal aliens as becoming an underclass, but attending college is the number one way in this country (to my knowledge) to assure that one DOESN'T become part of an underclass. I think we would be better off getting past the "But they shouldn't even be here in the first place!" argument and thinking of practicality (as opposed to principal) and the long term instead of the short term. Thoughts?
Due to our asinine law requiring U.S. taxpayers to pay for the K-12 education for illegal aliens, our schools are in shambles. They are overcrowded, under-funded, and our children are being denied a quality education. Now, WE -- the hard-working legal citizens of this country, are expected to assume yet an additional tax burden of paying for in-state tuition subsidies for these same illegal aliens. Where does it end? What will be the next DEMAND on their list?

If we grant illegal aliens in-state tuition, we are in fact legitimizing their presence. We are also encouraging more illegal immigration. No one is preventing illegals from attending college in the U.S., and they should be grateful they are given that opportunity. However, tax-funded subsidies should be a “benefit” reserved for LEGAL citizens of this country; not individuals who thumb their noses at our laws and feel nothing but disdain for our country and its citizenry.

It is bad enough that these interlopers have cut in line in front of the millions of decent law-abiding individuals who choose to play by the rules. Now we are expected to “reward” them for disobeying our laws. I don’t think so.

Your assumption is that these illegal aliens will become productive members of this society. You are ignoring one salient fact……they are STILL illegal. Illegal aliens cannot be “legally” employed in this country. Therefore, their college education will be of little value here in the U.S., unless they are amnestied; which is NOT going to happen. Those who profit from illegal immigration aren’t interested in degreed illegal aliens. There are more than enough college-degreed legal citizens in this country. Illegal employers make their profits from CHEAP illegal labor; which is the ONLY reason illegal immigration has been permitted to continue.

Even if the plaintiffs lose this case; more legal citizens will become aware of the existence of in-state tuition subsidies for illegal aliens. I also doubt that the thousands of out-of-state present and former students will simply take this lying down. If they lose the case, it will certainly not end the debate. Moreover, this will only serve as yet another source of hostility toward illegal aliens.

Illegal aliens graduating from U.S. highs schools should appreciate the educational opportunities this country has afforded them, and return to their countries of origin better equipped to become productive members of THAT society.

There are millions of legal citizens in this country who cannot afford to pay in-state college fees, not to mention, out-of-state college tuition. If illegal aliens cannot afford to pay for college, that is THEIR problem. Let them return to their own countries and attend college there. We owe them nothing. Illegal aliens have already drained our taxes. The well is now dry.
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,827,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous Political Junky View Post
We do not owe the illegals anything, not even a damn education, no matter what age or grade they are. PERIOD!!!!
They ARE receiving an education. Our tax dollars are paying for a K-12 education. Illegal aliens are also currently enrolled in our colleges. No, I do not believe we should be responsible for providing tax-funded subsidies for them to attend college. Many U.S. citizens have worked to put themselves through college. Why can't illegals do the same?
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:55 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,715,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
The reason why we disagree on this is that I'm willing to forgive the violation of a law if the long-term consequences of ignoring or forgiving that violation appear to be more favorable than the long-term consequences of recognizing it. Applied to this situation, I think it's potentially more beneficial to California to give these students in-state tuition than to risk them not fulfilling their potential by not attending college at all. I think California should look past the "illegal" part if the benefits in increased productivity and decreased need for social services outweigh the costs of giving these kids in-state tuition. I'm really choosing practicality over principle here, and that angers a lot of people. That's why I consistently disagree with a lot of people on this forum when talking about this issue.

It has been my experience that when someone speaks of 'practicality' in seeking a solution to the illegal aliens problem this typically means whatever their proposal is, it will yield benefits for the illegal aliens and nothing for US citizens.

Allowing them to attend college at in state rates then segues nicely into the next step, which is the DREAM Act. How can you deny them citizenship after they have attended college? The DREAM Act is little more than a poorly disguised amnesty.


Quote:
The DREAM Act (S. 774) is a nightmare. It is a mas sive amnesty that extends to the millions of illegal aliens who entered the United States before the age of 16. The illegal alien who applies for this amnesty is immediately rewarded with "conditional" lawful per manent resident (green card) status, which can be converted to a non-conditional green card in short order. The alien can then use his newly acquired status to seek green cards for the parents who brought him in illegally in the first place. In this way, it is also a back door amnesty for the millions of illegal aliens who brought their children with them to the United States.
The DREAM Act opens the door to citizenship for any illegal alien who entered the US before age 16 and has been here at least 5 years.

Quote:
Beyond that, all the alien needs is a high school diploma or a GED earned in the United States. If he can persuade an institution of higher education in the United States—any community college, technical school, or college—to admit him, that will suffice. Any illegal alien who meets these con ditions (or who can produce fraudulent papers indicating that he meets the conditions) gets immediate legal status in the form of a "condi tional" green card good for six years, according to Section 4(a)(1).
A few other problems:

There is no upper age limit so someone in his 40's can claim he come to the US 10 years ago and be eligible for the DREAM Act (ie, citizenship). There is no requirement that he (or she) provide specific documents to PROVE that he has been in the US all this time. Our cowardly gov. would probably accept just about anything an illegal alien cared to present. A ticket stub from a showing of 'Alien vs. Predator'? Here's your greencard, sir.
The DREAM Act's only requirement is that he "demonstrate" that he is eligible—which in practice could mean simply making a sworn statement to that effect. This is nothing more than an invitation to fraud and abuse.

Quote:
The illegal alien then has six years to adjust his status from a conditional green card holder to a non-conditional one. To do so, he need only complete two years of study at an institution of higher education. If the alien has already completed two years of study, he can convert to non-conditional status immediately (and use his green card as a platform to bring in family members).
This is a hot one. Once an alien files an application for the DREAM Act—any application, no matter how outrageous—the federal government is prohibited from deporting him. They are prohibited from deporting him even if he did not remotely meet the qualifications for the DREAM Act in the first place. It would seem to me that an illegal alien could pretty much stay here forever simply by repeatedly submitting DREAM Act applications.

Sorry, but this does not sound like a very good idea to me.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/imm...ion/bg2069.cfm
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Old 07-30-2008, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,827,658 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
It has been my experience that when someone speaks of 'practicality' in seeking a solution to the illegal aliens problem this typically means whatever their proposal is, it will yield benefits for the illegal aliens and nothing for US citizens.

Allowing them to attend college at in state rates then segues nicely into the next step, which is the DREAM Act. How can you deny them citizenship after they have attended college? The DREAM Act is little more than a poorly disguised amnesty.

The DREAM Act opens the door to citizenship for any illegal alien who entered the US before age 16 and has been here at least 5 years.

A few other problems:

There is no upper age limit so someone in his 40's can claim he come to the US 10 years ago and be eligible for the DREAM Act (ie, citizenship). There is no requirement that he (or she) provide specific documents to PROVE that he has been in the US all this time. Our cowardly gov. would probably accept just about anything an illegal alien cared to present. A ticket stub from a showing of 'Alien vs. Predator'? Here's your greencard, sir.
The DREAM Act's only requirement is that he "demonstrate" that he is eligible—which in practice could mean simply making a sworn statement to that effect. This is nothing more than an invitation to fraud and abuse.

This is a hot one. Once an alien files an application for the DREAM Act—any application, no matter how outrageous—the federal government is prohibited from deporting him. They are prohibited from deporting him even if he did not remotely meet the qualifications for the DREAM Act in the first place. It would seem to me that an illegal alien could pretty much stay here forever simply by repeatedly submitting DREAM Act applications.

Sorry, but this does not sound like a very good idea to me.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/imm...ion/bg2069.cfm
Thanks for posting this info. There are still many people who are oblivious to what our government has attempted to offer illegal aliens. The DREAM Act is a particularly disturbing bill. Not only would it reward the so-called Dreamies, it would reward their criminal parents through sponsorship; as well as countless other relatives still residing in their homeland.

Furthermore, the bill doesn’t even require that the illegal alien “complete” college. It’s such a farce.
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