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Old 08-07-2008, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
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I don't think this will help to stem illegals entering the country.

La Entrada al Pacifico, MOTRAN
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Old 08-08-2008, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Trust me: I am quite anti illegal immigration.........

Thank you for the kind words though
I know you are. But at least you are civil about it and don't seem antagonistic in your arguments. This is one think that is lacking in these immigration threads. One or two people try to display an opposing POV and everyone else jumps on them and antagonistically insults them comparing them to terrorists or propogandists or whatever irrelevany group they feel like it.
I understand that if you are in the community that bears the brunt of a problem, you may have problem coming over to my side.
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I can understand most of bluebeard's points; the problem is we simply have too many of those lawbreakers here from Mexico, etc.

And; factoring in things like ID theft, etc. we are discussing Felonies.......which would land an American in hot water. Subtracting the ID theft criminals, etc. would eliminate most of the illegals from any sort of an amnesty--------otherwise, they would wind up in prison.
I still maintain with a comprehensive reform that these illegal activities would diminish. Comprehensive immigration reform can indeed mean many different things. Mine idea of it is concentated on the ideas of supply and demand. If you have a demand for something, supply will often find its way. If the supply is not allowed a legal pathway, it will find an illegal one. So the answer would seemingly require a cutoff of the demand of illegal labor. This would mean severe fines on companies if they employ illegal immigrants. And, as much as this rubs me the wrong way, fining of individuals who hire illegal laborers (home depot pickups, etc...). I don't like this, but I defer to the idea that it is needed to cut off demand.
However, we must include those which are here in the process. Many already have families and lives here. They have come from abject poverty and made a life here. Many's children have been here for most if not all of their lives. To reject them, I believe, is a violation of human rights and respect.
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
I understand that if you are in the community that bears the brunt of a problem, you may have problem coming over to my side.
I don’t live in a community that bears the brunt of this invasion, and I too have a problem "coming over to your side." I prefer to remain on the side of the Rule of Law. Then again, I have a problem with criminal behavior in general. I guess I'm a crimacist.
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You still haven’t responded to my question. I will assume, given your predilection for altruistic endeavors, that you are personally sacrificing in your efforts to help your fellow man. It would be extremely hypocritical to espouse such, and to castigate others for their inhumanity, while you stand on the sidelines. I ask again, what are YOU doing?

How is it unrealistic to NOT grant amnesty to the 20-30 million illegal aliens currently residing in our country? Furthermore, how is the enforcement of our laws deemed “inhumane?” Do you also consider the punishment of thieves as being inhumane? What about those guilty of fraud? Should they all be absolved of their crimes for the sake of humanity? Where do you draw the line? Moreover, how do you suggest we implement immigration policies that would be “fair to all?” Finally, what is your definition of “comprehensive” relative to immigration?
I don't think my personal altruism is relevant to the discussion. Whether or not I have physically given material support does not mean I am a hypocrite. what I decry is a POLICY and CULTURE which is intolerant and inhumane. I don't like scapegoating and demonizing a certain group of people for being responsible for all the country's problems.
I think the idea of crime and criminality is also different in my mind. I see an illegal immigrant just as much a victim and a criminal. Many have come from severe poverty to offer a decent life for their families. Some are criminals in that they have stolen someone's ID and ruined their credit, etc... Guess what, that happens everywhere. In the area I lived before, it was due in large part to illegal immigrants. Now, its done by meth addicts. Desperation drives these crimes. Reduce the desperation of the illegal immigrants and you reduce the "real" crimes that take place.
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
I don't think this will help to stem illegals entering the country.

La Entrada al Pacifico, MOTRAN
OK, so you want a country to not invest in infrastructure (which helps develope its economy, reducing the need for economic migrations), because it also increases the opportunity for migration?
The answer to developing the Mexican economy is of course going to involve an abundance of trade with the US. And transportation links are going to be involved in that process.
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
I don't think my personal altruism is relevant to the discussion. Whether or not I have physically given material support does not mean I am a hypocrite. what I decry is a POLICY and CULTURE which is intolerant and inhumane. I don't like scapegoating and demonizing a certain group of people for being responsible for all the country's problems.
I think the idea of crime and criminality is also different in my mind. I see an illegal immigrant just as much a victim and a criminal. Many have come from severe poverty to offer a decent life for their families. Some are criminals in that they have stolen someone's ID and ruined their credit, etc... Guess what, that happens everywhere. In the area I lived before, it was due in large part to illegal immigrants. Now, its done by meth addicts. Desperation drives these crimes. Reduce the desperation of the illegal immigrants and you reduce the "real" crimes that take place.
I personally don’t know of one illegal alien opponent who blames illegal immigration ‘solely’ for the woes of this country. However, it is disingenuous to exclude illegal immigration from the equation.

You have your own definition of crime and criminality? In other words, crime is justified depending on the motive? It’s ok to steal identities, notwithstanding the damage done to the victims, as long as it was done for a “good” reason? The fact that “others” engage in this criminal behavior somehow diminishes it as a crime? Is that what you’re suggesting?
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Old 08-08-2008, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Missouri
3,640 posts, read 4,308,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
OK, so you want a country to not invest in infrastructure (which helps develope its economy, reducing the need for economic migrations), because it also increases the opportunity for migration?
The answer to developing the Mexican economy is of course going to involve an abundance of trade with the US. And transportation links are going to be involved in that process.
It is not our problem and it is not up to us to "fix" Mexico and its problems. Mexico needs to do it themselves. They have the money. Hell, as far as I am concerned our country should stop all money going to the country because they do not use it to help their citizens anyway. It just goes into the pockets of their elite. Mexico has the resources to take care of ALL of their citizens but of course, are quite racist and bigoted themselves. You could give Mexico all of the trade with us you wanted and they will still allow their Mestizo citizens to live in poverty. That is the way they want it. Let them live with it. Put a wall up and deport all of their criminals back to the. STOP misusing the Constitution and allowing their damn kids be U.S. citizens. They aren't and anybody that says they are are completely ignorant of our Constitution and what it says and has no idea to comprehend the written word.
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Old 08-08-2008, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
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Originally Posted by Anonymous Political Junky View Post
It is not our problem and it is not up to us to "fix" Mexico and its problems. Mexico needs to do it themselves. They have the money. Hell, as far as I am concerned our country should stop all money going to the country because they do not use it to help their citizens anyway. It just goes into the pockets of their elite. Mexico has the resources to take care of ALL of their citizens but of course, are quite racist and bigoted themselves. You could give Mexico all of the trade with us you wanted and they will still allow their Mestizo citizens to live in poverty. That is the way they want it. Let them live with it. Put a wall up and deport all of their criminals back to the. STOP misusing the Constitution and allowing their damn kids be U.S. citizens. They aren't and anybody that says they are are completely ignorant of our Constitution and what it says and has no idea to comprehend the written word.
And the congregation said, "Amen!"
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Old 08-08-2008, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Missouri
3,640 posts, read 4,308,379 times
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Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
And the congregation said, "Amen!"
Thank you!
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