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Old 08-07-2008, 05:33 AM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,900,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
It makes sense to me, I guess you have to be in it to understand it.

It obviously made sense to them, because they marched. But I will agree it doesn't seem to get across to alot of Americans, but some do get it.
Sorry Mach there is no defense for entering someone else's home without a FORMAL INVITATION (it's also illegal in the US) and expecting a red carpet treatment with all the perks and accommodations of being an invited guest, family member or the owner.

The only thing that makes sense about their illegal entry is that 50 DOLLARS a day (plus tips: anchor baby benefits) in America, beats the hell out of 50 CENTS a day in Mexico and a beat down if you dare complain.
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Old 08-07-2008, 06:39 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 65,287,097 times
Reputation: 22274
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
The thing is... its your OPINION that I'm distorting, just as its my OPINION that you have a distorted view as well. Otherwise, you basically have a religious unwavering, uncritical view of the situation. We both have embedded POVs. Neither of us is propogandizing. But thanks for the personal attacks. That's pretty awesome.
BB - I am not personally attacking you. We are talking about ideas here.

My point is - the law is the law. Mexican citizens are not American citizens.

I understand that you want to view the illegal immigrant issue as something to do w/ human rights. I, too, am concerned that employers have taken advantage of a situation, i.e., illegal immigrants who have come here and are willing to work for low wages. I think the employers should be sanctioned, and if that means, closing them down, fine w/ me. You seem to think that we Americans are so appreciative of the lowered costs we get for goods and services b/c Mexicans are here illegally, working for substandard wages. I see that as a fallacious argument, b/c first of all, the business owners do not pass the savings on to the consumer in most cases - they are simply pocketing the additional profit reaped by paying workers low wages. And secondly, I not only do not want someone performing a service for me who is not being paid fairly - I want Americans to have those jobs. Please do not tell me that all these illegals are doing jobs that Americans don't want. My son and his friends can't get jobs working at fast food restaurants b/c illegals are already working there for substandard wages.

Another example - I had several bids come in for replacing my gutters and all were about the same - and just what I had expected. I choose one based on a detailed discussion w/ the manager that A. I did not want people showing up who could not speak English (cause this says "illegals" to me) and B. I did not want anyone on my property who was not covered by Workman's Comp and C. I wanted experienced craftsmen, not day laborers making a mess on my property (as has happened in the past when landscapers showed up w/ what I believe were untrained day laborers).

Yet, who showed up at my house? Mexicans who could not speak a word. I sent them away. So the owner of the gutter company was just gonna pocket the savings he was gonna make by paying substandard wages. I was not going to get a price break! My point: Americans are not getting services and goods cheaper b/c of Mexicans. The only people profiting are the OWNERS of the businesses.

You seem to have this hang up on "human rights" issues. But you don't connect the dots. When people come here illegally, they have no rights, so they put themselves in the position of hiding from police and being taken advantage of by predatory lenders as well as predatory business owners. This is my fault? This is America's fault? Perhaps it is a personal, moral issue for those employers, but is it my responsibility to somehow "protect" a non-citizen who deliberately came here to get work and who knew he was breaking the law when he stepped over the border? NO. IT IS NOT. My tax dollars should not be going to underwriting his subsistence.

Now those are my thoughts. You may disagree w/ them, but I would like to know on what grounds, as what I am writing about is the rule of Law and the rights of Citizenship.

Last edited by brokensky; 08-07-2008 at 06:42 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,819,795 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
BB - I am not personally attacking you. We are talking about ideas here.

My point is - the law is the law. Mexican citizens are not American citizens.

I understand that you want to view the illegal immigrant issue as something to do w/ human rights. I, too, am concerned that employers have taken advantage of a situation, i.e., illegal immigrants who have come here and are willing to work for low wages. I think the employers should be sanctioned, and if that means, closing them down, fine w/ me. You seem to think that we Americans are so appreciative of the lowered costs we get for goods and services b/c Mexicans are here illegally, working for substandard wages. I see that as a fallacious argument, b/c first of all, the business owners do not pass the savings on to the consumer in most cases - they are simply pocketing the additional profit reaped by paying workers low wages. And secondly, I not only do not want someone performing a service for me who is not being paid fairly - I want Americans to have those jobs. Please do not tell me that all these illegals are doing jobs that Americans don't want. My son and his friends can't get jobs working at fast food restaurants b/c illegals are already working there for substandard wages.

Another example - I had several bids come in for replacing my gutters and all were about the same - and just what I had expected. I choose one based on a detailed discussion w/ the manager that A. I did not want people showing up who could not speak English (cause this says "illegals" to me) and B. I did not want anyone on my property who was not covered by Workman's Comp and C. I wanted experienced craftsmen, not day laborers making a mess on my property (as has happened in the past when landscapers showed up w/ what I believe were untrained day laborers).

Yet, who showed up at my house? Mexicans who could not speak a word. I sent them away. So the owner of the gutter company was just gonna pocket the savings he was gonna make by paying substandard wages. I was not going to get a price break! My point: Americans are not getting services and goods cheaper b/c of Mexicans. The only people profiting are the OWNERS of the businesses.

You seem to have this hang up on "human rights" issues. But you don't connect the dots. When people come here illegally, they have no rights, so they put themselves in the position of hiding from police and being taken advantage of by predatory lenders as well as predatory business owners. This is my fault? This is America's fault? Perhaps it is a personal, moral issue for those employers, but is it my responsibility to somehow "protect" a non-citizen who deliberately came here to get work and who knew he was breaking the law when he stepped over the border? NO. IT IS NOT. My tax dollars should not be going to underwriting his subsistence.

Now those are my thoughts. You may disagree w/ them, but I would like to know on what grounds, as what I am writing about is the rule of Law and the rights of Citizenship.
Very well stated!
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,819,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
Nope. Being a human obligates you to be civil and thoughtful to other humans. Thats my opinion. Otherwise, what's the point of civilization? Governments exist so that they can better the whole of humans as a whole. Some people are born into worse situations than others. It is our obligation to leave the world better than we entered it.
People are right when they say freedom comes with a price. It also comes with obligations. Obligations to be a responsible citizen. And while I cannot force another to do so, under the guise of freedom, I can expect people to consider the pointsof views of others not of their own. To at least interact with others and try to hinestly understand ideas that may counter their own without comparing them to terrorists.
I'm curious, how are YOU personally helping illegal aliens? Have you invited a family to live in your home? Are you providing food and shelter to illegal aliens? No joke. Seriously, what are YOU doing? More importantly, what are YOU doing for your fellow US citizens?
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:06 AM
 
1,861 posts, read 2,968,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
If employer A pays more, they will come, what did Americans expect would happen?

The point I made was Americans weren't crying about illegals until they marched. Nobody cared and probably still wouldn't care if they would have continued to fly under and be good lap dogs.
That's definitely not true. I've been following the illegal immigration debate for at least 10 years, and there were organizations then that were already dealing with this issue.

I was "crying about illegals" years ago, and so were many others. It's just now since their marches carrying Mexican flags and spitting on those who feed them (American taxpayers), that MORE Americans are upset about it.
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:16 AM
 
638 posts, read 1,638,611 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
Governments exist so that they can better the whole of humans as a whole.
Error.

Government exists because of force.
Government exists because a people choose not to govern themselves.
Government exists at best because of a need for adminstrative services.

Government is incapable of governing itself, and it would be a complete contradiction of history to think otherwise. Once checks and balances are removed, the power it is entrusted with, is easily corrupted into tyranny, and the very purpose of its creation is forgotten, which is, to serve.

Conceding power to a government removes the responsibility of humans to take their future into their own hands, and commits them to slavery.

Self-preservation is not a sin. You can't save a drowning person if they drown you, and a sad fact is, some people don't want to be helped -- they just want to take somebody else down with them. So frankly, the comparison of Hispanic propaganda to Muslim apologists, coming from the illegals or for them, along with the plague of stupidity by the politically correct, is an accurate assessment.

Do you want to better a country, or watch it burn? Most anti-illegals (like anti-Islamists) are people seeing the latter occuring. It's watching development go backwards in their countries.

Do you really want the world to be a better place? Then tell the planet to stop breeding! At least put a hold on it til' we figure out this mess out with the current population numbers. Let me know how that works out.
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:29 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,691,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard View Post
http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/c...nclick_check=1

However, people of Mexican origin are descendants of one of the six original world civilizations and whose ancestors help lay the foundation for the development of the present-day Southwest and other regions. The melting pot theory of assimilation and its assumptions are most often used by journalists, politicians and citizens who don't believe Mexican immigrants, legal or not, are productive members of society. At best, this theory is applicable to ethnic immigrants of European heritage. Unlike European immigrants who had to traverse an ocean, this theory does not apply to Native Americans or Mexicans who are indigenous to America.
Let me clarify one thing. There are no indigenous people to the Americas. None. All who became the peoples that we refer to as indigenous migrated--most from Siberia. There are no indigenous peoples in the true sense of the word anywhere in the world with the exception of Africa.

Mexicans are not indigenous to America--no more so than the Spanish. Mexican heritage is Mesoamerican Indian and European. By virtue of your own post, you acknowledge that the European is not indigenous to the Americas. Even so, Mesoamerican Indians are not the indigenous peoples of modern day America. The migration of the peoples who eventually became the Toltec, the Olmec, the Huichol, the Aztecs, etc. transpired before the Younger Dryas ice age which occured approximately 13,000 years ago, taking hold of the greater part of North America within a one year period.

Thousands of years separate the indigenous peoples of North America and those of Meso and South America. As a matter of fact, current theory postulates that not only were there numerous migrations but that not all migrations were by way of the Bering land bridge. Current theory accepts that migratory peoples likely possessed the technology to travel by water. This further separates the peoples of the Northern, Meso, and Southern regions of the Americas. Culturally there are few if any similarities. Linguistically, the usage of the lateral affricative and a lack of cognated sounds and words distinguishes native North American Indians from those of the Meso and South American Indians.

As with the Native Americans of North America, the face of the native Mesoamerican culture was completely changed by European contact. In the beginning of the Spanish conquest of present day Mexico, the colonial system imposed a system of castes, in which the indigenous peoples were marginalized. Nevertheless, a cultural symbiosis took place: the indigenous peoples adopted and syncretized Roman Catholicism, and a new ethnic group was born: the mestizo, of mixed European and indigenous ancestry. It is to this group that approximately 80% of Mexico's modern day population belongs. The other 20% is made up of native Indians, Spanish-European, and various groups of immigrant descendents such as German and Japanese.

As far as this claim is concerned, "However, people of Mexican origin are descendants of one of the six original world civilizations" -- Every one of the 6,715,206,362 people on the planet can make this same claim in some fashion or another. Should that ensure their ability to illegally emigrate to the United States? Which "six" civilizations do you consider to be the originals? I mean, even Neanderthals had culture.

So, now that we've sorted out the truth regarding the indigenous claims of citizens of Mexico to the modern day United States--let's reiterate the true heart of the argument.

The argument for the vast majority of Americans who are against illegal immigration has nothing to do with the cultural or physical ethnicity of said illegal immigrant and everything to do with 1) the illegality of their actions in coming to this country and 2) the consequential results of the said illegal actions.

Currently, the United States has an illegal alien population of an estimated 20 million people and without prompt action that number will only continue to grow. Each year, American taxpayers spend billions of dollars to provide health care, education, and incarceration to illegal immigrants. In these economically challenging times, there is no reason that hard-working American families should be forced to bear these costs.

Additionally, not all illegal immigrants are Mexican--will you also justify their illegal presence in this country while promoting the need to build a bridge with those illegal aliens and their countries of origin? If so, you're going to be one busy little construction worker.
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:43 AM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,900,435 times
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Accurate, to the point and well stated!
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:05 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,712,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyone View Post
[/b]

I agree with you and I do blame our goverment (that does not care) and the employers that hire them, I do not blame the Illegals.

This 'argument' that the illegal aliens should not be blamed for being in the US illegally is nonsense.
In general, adults are held responsible for their actions. Only in very specific cases are they not held responsible for their actions. A person who suffers from a diminished mental capacity (mental retardation) that renders them clearly unable to distinguish right from wrong cannot be held to the same standards as everyone else. They simply do not know that something they do may be wrong. A person who is afflicted with a mental illness may have judgement so impaired by this that they, too, cannot be held accountable for the things they do. If a person who is schizophrenic smashes a department store window because, due to their illness, they 'saw' a huge snake in the window, we can hardly give them the same punishment as someone who smashed the window as an act of vandalism. These are the only two instances I can think of where a legal adult may be given a pass as far as doing something illegal is concerned.
I love it when people start talking about how illegals cannot be held responsible for the fact that they are in the US illegally. Are they mentally incapable of grasping the concept that they are not supposed to be here? Or are their thought processes so impaired that they may not even realize they are in another country? Which is it, sassayone? Or is there a third category of people of people who should not be held responsible for their actions?
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Old 08-07-2008, 12:46 PM
 
2,449 posts, read 4,673,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Very well stated!
Well, like I said, I'm for punishing idnustries which hire illegal laborers with methods such as very high fines. Illegal immigration should be stopped. However, Part of this solution should include a allowing those already under the system to become a part of it. To not is unrealistic.
I suppose I have a hang-up on human rights. If humans don't treat each other decently, what's the point.
I'm not against ALL of what's being said here. Just that its implemented in a way that's fair to all. The illegal immigrants, and ourselves. THere are human methods to do so. To simply allow them legality, without reforming the system, is bad. To just attempt to kick them all out, is also bad. Comprehensive is the word that shold apply. We can all work together to get ends that we can all be content about and provide a more legal future for everyone. Openeing up more legal immigration, and increasing enforcement and punishment of those who employ illegal immigrants is a human compromise.
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