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Old 08-13-2008, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785

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Kele:

Besides; Aztlan is a fraud anyway------------as you pointed out, the Aztecs did not live in the territory of the present day USA anyway.
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,173,806 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Your view of history, if you don't mind me pointing it out, is quite skewed. Allow me to give you the actual version of historical events.

If the Mexicans of which you speak are Mestizo, which describes more than 80% of the Mexican population, then they have European blood. According to their own ideology, they need to go back to Spain.

The only indigenous peoples to these United States (and I use the term indigenous loosely as there are NO true indigenous peoples in the New World) are the Native North American Indians, NOT Meso American Indians. Evidence shows us that there were numerous migrations not only across the Bering Strait land bridge from Siberia, but that those early peoples likely had mastered ocean travel as well and likely sailed down the coast of North America, perhaps all the way to Tiera del Fuego. These people, after passing through the present day U.S. (or around it) on their way south approximately 15,000 - 12,500 years ago, became indigenous to present day Mexico and Central America and never came north again. There is absolutely NO archaeological or anthropological evidence to support the statement many of these reconquista proponents claim as gospel, that they are indigenous to the Southwestern United States. Are they indigenous to the continent? Yes, they are. Yet the Aztecs and Toltecs (related tribes) from whom many of these people claim to be descended, never made it past the Sonoran desert. It was a huge, natural barrier to northward migration after the end of the Younger Dryas ice age approximately 10,000 years ago. Most scholars agree that they never made it more than 100 miles north of present day Mexico City, site of the Aztec city of Teotihuacán.

As a person of Native American ancestry, I'm highly insulted when Mexicans assert that they are the only true indigenous peoples in the southwestern United States. Twenty-five years of ownership even in the span of the consolidation of the United States, is a piddily amount of time. The Roman Empire lasted for approximately 500 years. Does that mean that the Italians, their modern day progeny (or the closest thing to it) should own the majority of the civilized world? Can you see what an utterly imbecilic argument this is?
Probably not...
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:30 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Kele:

Besides; Aztlan is a fraud anyway------------the Aztecs did not lve in the territory of the present day USA anyway.
Indeed.

The word Aztlan as the mythical home of the Aztecs supposedly located somewhere in the modern day U.S. was actually coined by a white man sometime in the 1800's.

What a laugh, eh?
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,015 posts, read 8,080,914 times
Reputation: 4729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achury View Post
and your children's children will be educated in Spanish so LEARN it.
So what it will be Just like today the only reason my kid took spanish is so he could tell my maid to make sure she got the crapper clean and the skid marks out of my drawers
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:38 PM
 
214 posts, read 425,471 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achury View Post
He is not my cousin but he is a brother if he is Mexican .
I am not illegal born in Cali and we are growing in numbers through peace and ballot box we will take what is ours.

You are welcomed to live among us.

You can't even take your own country back ,so how do you plan on taking this one ? Look at the nation you left !

This nation won't be taken by an ignorant gang of third worlders, if it goes to mexico, it will be given away by it's citizens who continue to sit silent and complacent while their nation is being invaded with help from the ones they put in office to protect it .
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,173,806 times
Reputation: 391
Maybe the child wasn't paying attention when they taught History...

Would visual aids help??

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Old 08-13-2008, 06:40 PM
 
Location: West Michigan
12,084 posts, read 33,134,961 times
Reputation: 16733
He is just a young troll. quit arguing because everybody knows he is dead wrong while being too naive and ignorant of the world to acknowledge that fact. As I have been told on several occasions here on C-D by the mods: "Don't feed the Trolls!"

It is telling when my best friend for the last 40 years is of Hispanic decent,and I would NEVER call him Hispanic to his face because he would punch me right in the mouth. As he says, he is American, has served his Country and the flag he saluted and was willing to die for if needed was the Stars and Stripes, NOT the Mexican flag. His parents who were born in Mexico and came here legally back in the late 50's early 60's went through the whole process to become citizens the right way. They will not go down South to visit family because they can't stand seeing "those damn illegals all over the place!" (Their words, not mine.) When a family, who most of their relatives still live in Mexico, hate illegals coming into the Country so much it is eye opening. Their stand on the issue is that there is a legal way of entering the States and becoming productive citizens, do it or go to jail and get shipped back. They went through it, they don't see why others can't either.

That is a bit off topic I guess, but illustrated the huge division this issue causes in people. Personally, after having grown up with a Mexican family as my home away from home from the time I was in Kindergarten until today, I have no problems at all with other families coming into this country legally. Come across illegally and throw rocks at our border guards and I will buy the bullets myself to keep them shooting back at the buggers.
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:44 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Your view of history, if you don't mind me pointing it out, is quite skewed. Allow me to give you the actual version of historical events.

If the Mexicans of which you speak are Mestizo, which describes more than 80% of the Mexican population, then they have European blood. According to their own ideology, they need to go back to Spain.

The only indigenous peoples to these United States (and I use the term indigenous loosely as there are NO true indigenous peoples in the New World) are the Native North American Indians, NOT Meso American Indians. Evidence shows us that there were numerous migrations not only across the Bering Strait land bridge from Siberia, but that those early peoples likely had mastered ocean travel as well and likely sailed down the coast of North America, perhaps all the way to Tiera del Fuego. These people, after passing through the present day U.S. (or around it) on their way south approximately 15,000 - 12,500 years ago, became indigenous to present day Mexico and Central America and never came north again. There is absolutely NO archaeological or anthropological evidence to support the statement many of these reconquista proponents claim as gospel, that they are indigenous to the Southwestern United States. Are they indigenous to the continent? Yes, they are. Yet the Aztecs and Toltecs (related tribes) from whom many of these people claim to be descended, never made it past the Sonoran desert. It was a huge, natural barrier to northward migration after the end of the Younger Dryas ice age approximately 10,000 years ago. Most scholars agree that they never made it more than 100 miles north of present day Mexico City, site of the Aztec city of Teotihuacán.

As a person of Native American ancestry, I'm highly insulted when Mexicans assert that they are the only true indigenous peoples in the southwestern United States. Twenty-five years of ownership even in the span of the consolidation of the United States, is a piddily amount of time. The Roman Empire lasted for approximately 500 years. Does that mean that the Italians, their modern day progeny (or the closest thing to it) should own the majority of the civilized world? Can you see what an utterly imbecilic argument this is?
Interesting and 'eye-opening' as is your norm, Kele....but FAR too deep for general consumption. Just answer the question, please...."When did you start hating people just because they want to work?" That's all we need to know.
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:48 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
So what it will be Just like today the only reason my kid took spanish is so he could tell my maid to make sure she got the crapper clean and the skid marks out of my drawers
Lovely. Thanks for this information.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Rural Central Texas
3,581 posts, read 9,002,297 times
Reputation: 5402
Kele, Let me also add to your history lesson to Achury. My knowledge is principally Texas centric, so there could additional details appurtanant to the other territories I am unaware of.

During the Spanish ownership of the Mexican lands, they claimed the boundry of Mexico to extend north to either the Rio Grande River or the Nueces River and the lands north of that were considered Tejas territory. The Spanish land grants recognized Tejas as a separate territory under Spanish control and not part of Mexico.

Spain had a difficult time enticing Spanish citizens (the only legally eligible landowner class at the time) to accept lands very much north of Mexico City and found it almost impossible to get more than a few hundred Spaniards to populate the territories that comprised Tejas, and what we call Arizona, and New Mexico. Even those territories were largely controlled by Comanche and earlier Apache indians (migratory tribes) along with a diverse population of agrarial indian tribes. Most of the agrarian tribes were incorporated into the mission system or moved out of the territories as the spanish indian converts and non-indian populations grew.

Spain was still finding it difficult to find enough legally qualified persons to reside in the territories and resorted to opening the residency and land holder qualification to American and Europeans of Catholic persuasion. Many Spanish agents sold land grants to American and Europeans hoping to encourage new Spanish citizens in exchange for cheap land. Many con artists and "Land Speculation" companies popped up selling Spanish land grants for which they had no legal basis. Once the individual arrived in Tejas, they found that even without a legal deed, there was free land available in some of the less choice areas on the sole condition that they were Catholic and would agree to swear allegiency to Spain.

As a result of these legal commissions and the illegal deeds, population of Tejas grew to include a great many "Foreign" Spanish Citizens as legal landholders. Many of these soon became disheartened by some of the more one sided laws favoring the Spanish citizen over the newer citizens and as one thing lead to another the Texas revolution formented.

After Texas was separated from Spanish control it lasted a few years as an independant country with most of the existing land ownership intact. Some original land holders were forceably evicted due to their prerevolutionary alliances, but most remained. There were increasing hostilities between the Texans and the Mexican populace over the southern border river that continued for some years. After Texas was incorporated into the US attitudes, this dispute was the basis of the Spanish-American war and the disputed area between the Nueces River and the Rio Grande River were declared Texas Territory. Santa Anna negotiated his return to Mexico after being captured by US forces by selling the remaining territories of the now Southwestern US (New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California et.al). Since Mexico has initiated cross border contact at the start of the war in response to taunting by the US forces still on American soil, Mexico was seen as the agressor according to war conventions at the time. The sale of lands as consequence was as valid a transfer act as the original acquisition of Mexico by the Spanish by conquest of the Aztec and other tribes inhabiting central Mexico at the time of their arrival. This is the same process of acquisition employed by all civilizations through history, including the native indians in North America and the Spanish-Indian Mestizos currently claiming historical ownership.

So, as Kele indicated, Spain held this territory for a very short time as an official Spanish Territory, and during that time was unable to encourage sufficient population to hold and develop it. Foreign immigration from America and Europe provided the first residential populace of significant numbers. Subsequent population of these territories occurred after US ownership of the lands via legal and illegal immigration.
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