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Old 08-13-2008, 07:27 PM
 
Location: West Michigan
12,084 posts, read 33,141,404 times
Reputation: 16733

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Why is it that whenever Mexican illegal immigration is mentioned the whole "people just want to work" argument is wheeled out? Does that make it less illegal? No it doesn't. If they just want to work here, let them enter legally just a my ancestors did when they came across from Scotland, Ireland, and the Netherlands; or my wifes did when they came across from Ireland and Germany; or my best friends parents when they came up from Mexico. Don't want to do it legally, then ship them back where they came from. Don't extend welfare and social programs that cost those of us who are working and paying the taxes to live here correctly. Don't pay taxes because you are illegal, get the hell out. Plain and simple.

Assault an officer of the United States and you should have to deal with the consequences. If it involves getting shot because you were a threat, then so be it.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:37 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62 View Post
Kele, Let me also add to your history lesson to Achury. My knowledge is principally Texas centric, so there could additional details appurtanant to the other territories I am unaware of.

During the Spanish ownership of the Mexican lands, they claimed the boundry of Mexico to extend north to either the Rio Grande River or the Nueces River and the lands north of that were considered Tejas territory. The Spanish land grants recognized Tejas as a separate territory under Spanish control and not part of Mexico.

Spain had a difficult time enticing Spanish citizens (the only legally eligible landowner class at the time) to accept lands very much north of Mexico City and found it almost impossible to get more than a few hundred Spaniards to populate the territories that comprised Tejas, and what we call Arizona, and New Mexico. Even those territories were largely controlled by Comanche and earlier Apache indians (migratory tribes) along with a diverse population of agrarial indian tribes. Most of the agrarian tribes were incorporated into the mission system or moved out of the territories as the spanish indian converts and non-indian populations grew.

Spain was still finding it difficult to find enough legally qualified persons to reside in the territories and resorted to opening the residency and land holder qualification to American and Europeans of Catholic persuasion. Many Spanish agents sold land grants to American and Europeans hoping to encourage new Spanish citizens in exchange for cheap land. Many con artists and "Land Speculation" companies popped up selling Spanish land grants for which they had no legal basis. Once the individual arrived in Tejas, they found that even without a legal deed, there was free land available in some of the less choice areas on the sole condition that they were Catholic and would agree to swear allegiency to Spain.

As a result of these legal commissions and the illegal deeds, population of Tejas grew to include a great many "Foreign" Spanish Citizens as legal landholders. Many of these soon became disheartened by some of the more one sided laws favoring the Spanish citizen over the newer citizens and as one thing lead to another the Texas revolution formented.

After Texas was separated from Spanish control it lasted a few years as an independant country with most of the existing land ownership intact. Some original land holders were forceably evicted due to their prerevolutionary alliances, but most remained. There were increasing hostilities between the Texans and the Mexican populace over the southern border river that continued for some years. After Texas was incorporated into the US attitudes, this dispute was the basis of the Spanish-American war and the disputed area between the Nueces River and the Rio Grande River were declared Texas Territory. Santa Anna negotiated his return to Mexico after being captured by US forces by selling the remaining territories of the now Southwestern US (New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California et.al). Since Mexico has initiated cross border contact at the start of the war in response to taunting by the US forces still on American soil, Mexico was seen as the agressor according to war conventions at the time. The sale of lands as consequence was as valid a transfer act as the original acquisition of Mexico by the Spanish by conquest of the Aztec and other tribes inhabiting central Mexico at the time of their arrival. This is the same process of acquisition employed by all civilizations through history, including the native indians in North America and the Spanish-Indian Mestizos currently claiming historical ownership.

So, as Kele indicated, Spain held this territory for a very short time as an official Spanish Territory, and during that time was unable to encourage sufficient population to hold and develop it. Foreign immigration from America and Europe provided the first residential populace of significant numbers. Subsequent population of these territories occurred after US ownership of the lands via legal and illegal immigration.
Very good post. Thanks.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:57 PM
 
16,092 posts, read 35,784,302 times
Reputation: 6264
Yes when you do a title search on your property in Texas, many times it goes back to the Spanish Land Grant survey.
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:42 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,689,216 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62 View Post
Kele, Let me also add to your history lesson to Achury. My knowledge is principally Texas centric, so there could additional details appurtanant to the other territories I am unaware of.

During the Spanish ownership of the Mexican lands, they claimed the boundry of Mexico to extend north to either the Rio Grande River or the Nueces River and the lands north of that were considered Tejas territory. The Spanish land grants recognized Tejas as a separate territory under Spanish control and not part of Mexico.

Spain had a difficult time enticing Spanish citizens (the only legally eligible landowner class at the time) to accept lands very much north of Mexico City and found it almost impossible to get more than a few hundred Spaniards to populate the territories that comprised Tejas, and what we call Arizona, and New Mexico. Even those territories were largely controlled by Comanche and earlier Apache indians (migratory tribes) along with a diverse population of agrarial indian tribes. Most of the agrarian tribes were incorporated into the mission system or moved out of the territories as the spanish indian converts and non-indian populations grew.

Spain was still finding it difficult to find enough legally qualified persons to reside in the territories and resorted to opening the residency and land holder qualification to American and Europeans of Catholic persuasion. Many Spanish agents sold land grants to American and Europeans hoping to encourage new Spanish citizens in exchange for cheap land. Many con artists and "Land Speculation" companies popped up selling Spanish land grants for which they had no legal basis. Once the individual arrived in Tejas, they found that even without a legal deed, there was free land available in some of the less choice areas on the sole condition that they were Catholic and would agree to swear allegiency to Spain.

As a result of these legal commissions and the illegal deeds, population of Tejas grew to include a great many "Foreign" Spanish Citizens as legal landholders. Many of these soon became disheartened by some of the more one sided laws favoring the Spanish citizen over the newer citizens and as one thing lead to another the Texas revolution formented.

After Texas was separated from Spanish control it lasted a few years as an independant country with most of the existing land ownership intact. Some original land holders were forceably evicted due to their prerevolutionary alliances, but most remained. There were increasing hostilities between the Texans and the Mexican populace over the southern border river that continued for some years. After Texas was incorporated into the US attitudes, this dispute was the basis of the Spanish-American war and the disputed area between the Nueces River and the Rio Grande River were declared Texas Territory. Santa Anna negotiated his return to Mexico after being captured by US forces by selling the remaining territories of the now Southwestern US (New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California et.al). Since Mexico has initiated cross border contact at the start of the war in response to taunting by the US forces still on American soil, Mexico was seen as the agressor according to war conventions at the time. The sale of lands as consequence was as valid a transfer act as the original acquisition of Mexico by the Spanish by conquest of the Aztec and other tribes inhabiting central Mexico at the time of their arrival. This is the same process of acquisition employed by all civilizations through history, including the native indians in North America and the Spanish-Indian Mestizos currently claiming historical ownership.

So, as Kele indicated, Spain held this territory for a very short time as an official Spanish Territory, and during that time was unable to encourage sufficient population to hold and develop it. Foreign immigration from America and Europe provided the first residential populace of significant numbers. Subsequent population of these territories occurred after US ownership of the lands via legal and illegal immigration.
Excellent post--you are spot on. Kudos to you.
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:52 PM
 
1,474 posts, read 2,016,557 times
Reputation: 457
Its ashame that he will probably be in the same lock up as Ramos and Compeon, and the border patrol agent also
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:57 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Convert 54 View Post
Its ashame that he will probably be in the same lock up as Ramos and Compeon, and the border patrol agent also
Probably not since they were being engaged(even if it was with rocks), instead of shooting someone in the back for carrying pot.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:25 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Probably not since they were being engaged(even if it was with rocks), instead of shooting someone in the back for carrying pot.
The moral of the story is..............if you carry your pot in Mexico (instead of illegally entering the US) then there is no chance you will not be shot in the back by BP agents.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:28 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
The moral of the story is..............if you carry your pot in Mexico (instead of illegally entering the US) then there is no chance you will not be shot in the back by BP agents.
So its pretty much guaranteed?
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:54 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
So its pretty much guaranteed?
All this pot carrying miscreant had to do was stay out of the US. If he had stayed on his side of the border in his country, he would not have been shot by the BP. He could have transported his pot from one end of mexico to the other. He could probably have sat across the river in Mexico and smoked the whole thing. As long as he was in his own country, why would an American BP agent shoot at him? As long as he stays out of the US, he is of no concern to the BP.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,174,407 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Probably not since they were being engaged(even if it was with rocks), instead of shooting someone in the back for carrying pot.
That low-life, piece of crap drug dealer didn't get shot in the back, amc. You should check your facts before you talk smack.
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