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Old 08-16-2008, 04:22 PM
 
Location: San Antonio Texas
11,435 posts, read 15,951,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Side note here:

Many of the defenders of the Alamo were indeed 'Mexicans' themselves whose forefathers kicked Spain out of Mexico one generation earlier---------and, were not going to listen to Mexico City when it came to Tejas affairs.

thank you for saying that. you saved me the trouble. the tejanos were indeed instrumental in leading the battle for texas independence from mexico.
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Old 08-16-2008, 04:30 PM
 
1,818 posts, read 2,735,553 times
Reputation: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achury View Post
A just USA a good USA would grant amnesty and with growing sympathy for good hard working people who have BUILT USA .

Mexicans contributed to what America is now we deserve a piece of the pie we helped build

I think we will have amnesty .


History of Mexican-American Undocumented Immigration in the United States - Why Immigrant Amnesty is the Only Fair Response
The link you posted was a very good article, thanks for posting it
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:37 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,712,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyone View Post
The link you posted was a very good article, thanks for posting it
Not for one second do I doubt that you consider that to be an excellent article.
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Old 08-17-2008, 07:42 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 65,287,097 times
Reputation: 22274
I am lost here. We are talking about Mexicans, right? We call them Mexicans b/c they are citizens of Mexico, correct?

And they are here w/o permission . . . everyone agree? So why should we give them amnesty? Amnesty for what? Breaking the law? WHY SHOULD WE DO THAT?

They came here to work. They worked. Now it is time to go home. This is not hard. They were not here legally.

What do you have to say to the workers from other countries who went to great lengths to get VISAS, green cards, whatever, so they could come work here? I guess we give them "amnesty," too?

This is a ridiculous argument. Mexicans helped build America? Oh, I guess foreign workers in Dubai (American citizens) should get amnesty to live in Dubai cause they helped BUILD DUBAI.

What a totally pointless argument - w/ no merit whatsoever.
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:24 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
I am lost here. We are talking about Mexicans, right? We call them Mexicans b/c they are citizens of Mexico, correct?

And they are here w/o permission . . . everyone agree? So why should we give them amnesty? Amnesty for what? Breaking the law? WHY SHOULD WE DO THAT?

They came here to work. They worked. Now it is time to go home. This is not hard. They were not here legally.

What do you have to say to the workers from other countries who went to great lengths to get VISAS, green cards, whatever, so they could come work here? I guess we give them "amnesty," too?

This is a ridiculous argument. Mexicans helped build America? Oh, I guess foreign workers in Dubai (American citizens) should get amnesty to live in Dubai cause they helped BUILD DUBAI.

What a totally pointless argument - w/ no merit whatsoever.
Good analogy...(and I say this as a great respecter of analogies). There are countless examples of people all over, traveling to take jobs as contract labor to 'build' all manner of things....yet this in no way implies that they have rights to take up residence anywhere, once the job is done. Tens of thousands of 'outsiders' went to Alaska to build the pipeline in the 60's...yet few of these people actually remained there...and the economy in Alaska couldn't have accommodated them had they all insisted upon staying on.

Performing a specified task, for a specified pay, is a 'deal' in itself. You come, you work, you go home. Implying some sort of proprietary 'right' to live in a place because you once worked there, and thus 'helped build' it, is romantic nonsense. Sounds good in a speech, but means little or nothing under the law. Plenty of people were employed in building the Empire State Building. None of them got to 'live' there...nor could they wander through its offices in later years, explaining to the tenants "I'm not an intruder..actually, I helped BUILD this building"....(good luck on THAT explanation, as you get tossed out for trespassing !)

The old 'bracero' program was much more sensible a solution than the nonsense of illegal immigration. The word was passed around in Mexico that 'work was available up North'....willing workers signed up, traveled north, performed their jobs, were paid, and went home. Many repeated the process. Everyone benefitted, yet there was no false implication of any 'right' to remain here just because you'd worked for a season or two. No anger, no resentment, no sense of betrayal. It was a business deal.

Living permanently in a society, and being entitled to the rights therein, implies the need for citizenship....and that requires going through 'channels', and following the law, not 'sneaking in' and then loudly demanding special treatment that others don't get.
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:30 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 65,287,097 times
Reputation: 22274
Macmeal: A very elegant and eloquent post. You make the point succinctly and I appreciate your expanding on what I was trying to convey.

I am growing very weary of the specious arguments (and justifications) that I hear from illegals and their proponents. This one is especially aggravating and totally nonsensical.
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:41 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Macmeal: A very elegant and eloquent post. You make the point succinctly and I appreciate your expanding on what I was trying to convey.

I am growing very weary of the specious arguments (and justifications) that I hear from illegals and their proponents. This one is especially aggravating and totally nonsensical.
Thanks. It's becoming more and more evident as time goes on and conditions change, that illegal immigration, once a relatively 'victimless crime' which was generally pretty well tolerated by everyone, has now mushroomed into a HUGE controversy....partially due to its sheer overwhelming numbers, and partially due to the ever-increasing sense of outrage, resentment, and 'entitlement' on the part of the illegals themselves. Today's illegal immigration is a far different 'scene' from that of 20 or 30 years ago.

For that reason, if you're going to insist on justifying and defending illegal immigration, increasingly these days, 'specious arguments and justifications' are about all you CAN make, IMHO....since the 'valid' arguments have all been made obsolete.
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Old 08-17-2008, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,633,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Thanks. It's becoming more and more evident as time goes on and conditions change, that illegal immigration, once a relatively 'victimless crime' which was generally pretty well tolerated by everyone, has now mushroomed into a HUGE controversy....partially due to its sheer overwhelming numbers, and partially due to the ever-increasing sense of outrage, resentment, and 'entitlement' on the part of the illegals themselves. Today's illegal immigration is a far different 'scene' from that of 20 or 30 years ago.

For that reason, if you're going to insist on justifying and defending illegal immigration, increasingly these days, 'specious arguments and justifications' are about all you CAN make, IMHO....since the 'valid' arguments have all been made obsolete.
Sometimes macmeal can pontificate, yes.

However: if the man is stating something in a cut and dried manner...............beware. Especially in the last paragraph he posted above.
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:52 AM
 
1,861 posts, read 2,968,767 times
Reputation: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achury View Post
-------------------

To answer your question. I say NO you do not. Not as you are now we need to unite all the Amerca's here in this rich country.

Enough for everyone .
Ah-ha - so it's all about MONEY?? Because we are a wealthy nation (as is Mexico, btw), we are supposed to support all the people coming in from Mexico? Mexico can damned well support their own people.

We do NOT want to merge with Mexico or Canada. It will only happen over our dead bodies.
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Old 08-18-2008, 08:35 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,691,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achury View Post
-------------------

To answer your question. I say NO you do not. Not as you are now we need to unite all the Amerca's here in this rich country.

Enough for everyone .
Ah but see, there's the rub. There is not enough for everyone.

America is not a country of unlimited resources. America is a country of non-renewable resources. Those things that we have come to rely on in our daily lives are slowly being used up.

Do you think that oil and gas somehow magically procreate, renewing what's been extracted from the earth, that there is an unlimited supply of coal, iron ore, calcium chloride, iron oxide pigments and magnesium compounds?

Agriculturally speaking, we lose thousands of acres of farm land a year to drought, climate change, and progress. How are we supposed to feed all of these people if neighborhoods now cover areas where acres of corn, wheat, and other crops once stood?

Our forests are disappearing as well. Where do you think we're getting all of the necessary wood to build the homes for these multitudes of people you expect us to absorb?

What about our water supply? Do you think that it's unlimited as well? Are you aware that the southwestern states are slated to completely run out of water within the next 50 years? Some experts are predicting half that time.

There is NOT enough for everyone. There is not even enough for those that are here and you think we should accept more?

Actually, you really only want to accept our friends from south of the border, you could care less about any other nationality. Are you aware of the fact that Mexico is one of the most resource rich nations in the world? The Japanese have said that if they owned Mexico, they would be the most powerful nation in the world, its resources are that substantial.

So why don't your buddies stay home and work to make their country the great nation it could be instead of coming over here and chomping their way through our limited resources like a plague of locusts descending on Egypt.
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