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Old 04-07-2009, 10:23 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,081,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Multiculturalism=Balkanization.

One unifier here in the USA is the English language.

Again: it is past time to reimpose immigration laws similar to those of ca. 1920 (eliminating the race/ethnic discrimination aspects).
Multiculturalism societies need not be one without a common language. Just having many languages as well as the common language. Many people in those days completely erased their cultural identity. We should not return to that. Learn English, but reatain your native language as well.
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,643,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Multiculturalism societies need not be one without a common language. Just having many languages as well as the common language. Many people in those days completely erased their cultural identity. We should not return to that. Learn English, but reatain your native language as well.
Which 'native' language? I have known quite a few US citizens of 4+ distinct ethnicities-----------why should they have to know 4 tongues over and above English-----------especially if said individuals self identify as unhyphenated Americans.

Sorry dude: this is the USA. E Pluribus Unum=Out of Many, One!
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:28 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,081,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Which 'native' language? I have known quite a few US citizens of 4+ distinct ethnicities-----------why should they have to know 4 tongues over and above English-----------especially if said individuals self identify as unhyphenated Americans.

Sorry dude: this is the USA. E Pluribus Unum=Out of Many, One!
I guess you don't understand, but it's fine. You won't understand, which is okay. However, i'll try one last attempt. You can speak English as well as another language...I never said "should", you did. I never said don't learn English, you did. As per your absurd example, if you have that many ethnicities, then most likely the family lost all other languages besides English (you figure it out, temporal reasons, historical factors, etc.)

My point is simply that it is not frowned upon to retain your culture as well as adopt America's culture. Even in upscale suburban Chino Hills and Walnut (two of America's nicest communities) people did not succumb to being completely Americanized. They speak English, but they also communicate in other languages. They watch TV in other languages, their kids and grandchildren have retained their language in addition to speaking English. This is a good thing. It enables us to have a more global outlook. It questions what it means to be "American".

So, you think they should not speak, watch, read, their native tongue? Instead, they should only speak English? Should they completely strip away their culture? What if they are fully functional within the greater society and they still retain their original cultural habits? You can have it both ways.
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,643,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I guess you don't understand, but it's fine. You won't understand, which is okay. However, i'll try one last attempt. You can speak English as well as another language...I never said "should", you did. I never said don't learn English, you did. As per your absurd example, if you have that many ethnicities, then most likely the family lost all other languages besides English (you figure it out, temporal reasons, historical factors, etc.)

My point is simply that it is not frowned upon to retain your culture as well as adopt America's culture. Even in upscale suburban Chino Hills and Walnut (two of America's nicest communities) people did not succumb to being completely Americanized. They speak English, but they also communicate in other languages. They watch TV in other languages, their kids and grandchildren have retained their language in addition to speaking English. This is a good thing. It enables us to have a more global outlook. It questions what it means to be "American".

So, you think they should not speak, watch, read, their native tongue? Instead, they should only speak English? Should they completely strip away their culture? What if they are fully functional within the greater society and they still retain their original cultural habits? You can have it both ways.
Just face it: you and I are 180 degrees apart here---------------accept it.

You will not back down (although you being a college kid has a lot to do with it, I used to be much more tolerant of 'multiculturalism' 30 years ago then I grew up) and I certainly will not back down either.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:55 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,081,161 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Just face it: you and I are 180 degrees apart here---------------accept it.

You will not back down (although you being a college kid has a lot to do with it, I used to be much more tolerant of 'multiculturalism' 30 years ago then I grew up) and I certainly will not back down either.
First off, I'm out of college. Second off, it's fine on a personal level that you personally don't like multiculturalism...but it's not okay on a societal standpoint.

On that note, I'm headed out the door to meet up with this one Chinese girl (btw, speaks Chinese and English both fluently), eat Mexican food, and drive through Little Armenia on the way back home.
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:06 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Multiculturalism societies need not be one without a common language. Just having many languages as well as the common language. Many people in those days completely erased their cultural identity. We should not return to that. Learn English, but reatain your native language as well.
So to YOU, then, culture encompasses language. cuisine, and perhaps music...but apparently not much else? Sorry, but I must disagree. If that were the case, then we could all learn to speak a few phrases in Tagalog, dine occasionally at a Mexican restaurant, listen to a misical CD in Farsi once a week, and all congratulate ourselves on being 'multicultural sophisticates'...but it's not that simple, because culture is far more complex than such "surface fluff" (and, as a matter of fact, many of us ALREADY do these sorts of things). Culture comprises an individual's deepest beliefs, and his views on ethics, morality, his place in society, and his relationship with others. It's a lot more than 'fluff'. Fluff you can find at Disneyland.

How about a guy who makes a habit of "beating his woman" occasionally, just to keep her in line? THAT'S a time-honored cultural attribute of many societies, as well, with a LONG track record, and WIDE acceptance (check out the CURRENT state of women in Afghanistan). How about 'honor killings' of promiscuous daughters, to 'perserve the dignity of the family'...not only is this DONE, it's seen as ABSOLUTELY NECCESSARY in some societies. Is it "OK" here?

Eating dogs? Bethrothing your 12-year old daughter in marriage to a 35 year old male? Killing your religious rivals? Teaching your kids that 'the system' is against them, and 'the cop' is your natural enemy, and school is "not for girls"? How about cannibalism? Ritual gang rape? Fistfights to settle differences? Blood feuds between family groups?

ALL of these have deep roots, and at least SOME support, in various CULTURES...because in SOME places, they 'make sense'...or are seen as 'normal behavior'.

So what do we do..accept this behavior as "OK"?....or tell its practicioners that, no, it's NOT OK, and that regardless of how things were "back home", this stuff will NOT be tolerated here. You're either going to have to say this stuff is a NO NO here (in which case, you're not REALLY being open to all cultures)..or you're going to have to ALLOW it, because it's OK for those who DO it, because that's their CULTURE. You CAN'T take both positions, though. And PLEASE..don't try to tell me "this can't happen here, because we have LAWS against it"....You realize, don't you, that one's view of "law" is ALSO a part of his culture...and that some cultures don't give a "Flying %$#@" about what some "law" says to do....in fact, that's a big part of the whole debate. "Law", and its relevance to the individual, varies in importance according to culture.

And by the way, referencing your post, can you point out the "multiculturalism societies" you're referring to, and can you point out a successful example of a multicultural society, where EVERYBODY accepts everybody else, and no one gets angry, and no favoritism is shown to ANY group; and where this has been the 'norm' in that society for any length of time beyond just the last couple of decades? WHAT societies are you referring to?

Last edited by macmeal; 04-08-2009 at 03:14 PM..
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,643,200 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
First off, I'm out of college. Second off, it's fine on a personal level that you personally don't like multiculturalism...but it's not okay on a societal standpoint.

On that note, I'm headed out the door to meet up with this one Chinese girl (btw, speaks Chinese and English both fluently), eat Mexican food, and drive through Little Armenia on the way back home.
Assimilate or be sidelined.

The dominant culture here in the USA is still English based--------which is a hell of a lot better than any Third World 'culture'. If I wanted to esperience what macmeal described in the post immediately above mine; I would choose to live in Afghanistan, Mexico or some other decrepid nation--------suffice to say, I certainly do not want their dysfuntional attitudes imported into MY nation. We have enough homegrown trash-------additional bottom feeders need not apply.
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,900,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
So to YOU, then, culture encompasses language. cuisine, and perhaps music...but apparently not much else? Sorry, but I must disagree. If that were the case, then we could all learn to speak a few phrases in Tagalog, dine occasionally at a Mexican restaurant, listen to a misical CD in Farsi once a week, and all congratulate ourselves on being 'multicultural sophisticates'...but it's not that simple, because culture is far more complex than such "surface fluff" (and, as a matter of fact, many of us ALREADY do these sorts of things). Culture comprises an individual's deepest beliefs, and his views on ethics, morality, his place in society, and his relationship with others. It's a lot more than 'fluff'. Fluff you can find at Disneyland.

How about a guy who makes a habit of "beating his woman" occasionally, just to keep her in line? THAT'S a time-honored cultural attribute of many societies, as well, with a LONG track record, and WIDE acceptance (check out the CURRENT state of women in Afghanistan). How about 'honor killings' of promiscuous daughters, to 'perserve the dignity of the family'...not only is this DONE, it's seen as ABSOLUTELY NECCESSARY in some societies. Is it "OK" here?

Eating dogs? Bethrothing your 12-year old daughter in marriage to a 35 year old male? Killing your religious rivals? Teaching your kids that 'the system' is against them, and 'the cop' is your natural enemy, and school is "not for girls"? How about cannibalism? Ritual gang rape? Fistfights to settle differences? Blood feuds between family groups?

ALL of these have deep roots, and at least SOME support, in various CULTURES...because in SOME places, they 'make sense'...or are seen as 'normal behavior'.

So what do we do..accept this behavior as "OK"?....or tell its practicioners that, no, it's NOT OK, and that regardless of how things were "back home", this stuff will NOT be tolerated here. You're either going to have to say this stuff is a NO NO here (in which case, you're not REALLY being open to all cultures)..or you're going to have to ALLOW it, because it's OK for those who DO it, because that's their CULTURE. You CAN'T take both positions, though. And PLEASE..don't try to tell me "this can't happen here, because we have LAWS against it"....You realize, don't you, that one's view of "law" is ALSO a part of his culture...and that some cultures don't give a "Flying %$#@" about what some "law" says to do....in fact, that's a big part of the whole debate. "Law", and its relevance to the individual, varies in importance according to culture.

And by the way, referencing your post, can you point out the "multiculturalism societies" you're referring to, and can you point out a successful example of a multicultural society, where EVERYBODY accepts everybody else, and no one gets angry, and no favoritism is shown to ANY group; and where this has been the 'norm' in that society for any length of time beyond just the last couple of decades? WHAT societies are you referring to?
Scary world, huh?

To you, culture=all the negative aspects of a culture...at least when talking about third world countries.

You ask for an example of a multicultural society where everybody accepts everybody else, and no one gets angry, and no favoritism is shown to any group.
How many examples of a monocultural society where everybody accepts everybody else and no one gets angry, and no favoritism is shown to any group can YOU come up with?
Where's this utopia at?
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:59 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983
ALL societies have discord....and all have strife. Whether that strife takes the form of arguing on forums..or rudeness...or lawsuits on the one hand.....OR murder, bombings, and ethnic warfare on the OTHER hand....often is dependent on whether the members of that society see themselves as "all part of a whole"...or rival, self-preserving 'tribes'.

There's no utopia....but there are a NUMBER of "hell-holes", and I'm not anxious to live in one.

(Side note to interested parties: No, I do NOT consider Mexico to be a 'hell-hole' of ethnic strife....NOR do I consider it to be 'multicultural', either....and I don't believe Mexico has any plans to BECOME multicultural, either...beyond the most superficial level. I believe Mexico regards itself as "proudly Mexican", and has little desire to become anything else. In fact, for all the problems Mexico DOES have, perhaps the one thing saving them from total breakdown is that they at LEAST all see themselves as 'Mexicans', rather than as various, opposing cultures. )).

Last edited by macmeal; 04-08-2009 at 05:16 PM..
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Old 04-08-2009, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,643,200 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
ALL societies have discord....and all have strife. Whether that strife takes the form of arguing on forums..or rudeness...or lawsuits on the one hand.....OR murder, bombings, and ethnic warfare on the OTHER hand....often is dependent on whether the members of that society see themselves as "all part of a whole"...or rival, self-preserving 'tribes'.

There's no utopia....but there are a NUMBER of "hell-holes", and I'm not anxious to live in one.

(Side note to interested parties: No, I do NOT consider Mexico to be a 'hell-hole' of ethnic strife....NOR do I consider it to be 'multicultural', either....and I don't believe Mexico has any plans to BECOME multicultural, either...beyond the most superficial level. I believe Mexico regards itself as "proudly Mexican", and has little desire to become anything else. In fact, for all the problems Mexico DOES have, perhaps the one thing saving them from total breakdown is that they at LEAST all see themselves as 'Mexicans', rather than as various, opposing cultures. )).
Mexico and the USA are virtually identical in that regard: if anything; Mx is even more nationalistic vis a vis the dominance of its (Spanish) language for all of its citizens---------and, rightly so. The USA needs to take the hint concerning English
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