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Old 04-08-2009, 06:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
On that note, I'm headed out the door to meet up with this one Chinese girl (btw, speaks Chinese and English both fluently), eat Mexican food, and drive through Little Armenia on the way back home.
Sounds VERY cosmopolitan, indeed. And how fortunate for you, that when you're meeting up with the bilingual Chinese girl, eating your Mexican meal, and driving through Little Armenia, that you don't have to be subject to Chinese law nor social mores, nor go through a lawsuit under the Mexican court system, nor suffer the fate of the Armenians...(you know...Armenians...those folks back home who experienced the Turks' views on 'multiculturalism' up close and personal..those folks whose 'country' no longer exists.).

Sounds like a nice day....but not particularly what I'd call an example of 'multiculturalism'. I have more than THAT degree of 'cosmopolitanism' in my own family...yet I don't consider us 'multicultural', since at the end of the day we're all Americans, and VERY glad for the opportunity NOT to have to experience all the 'wonders' of our "real" ancestral cultures...just the fun parts.

The COOKING 'back home' was GREAT...but the 'lifestyle'?? Not always, thankyouverymuch....
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,907,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Sounds VERY cosmopolitan, indeed. And how fortunate for you, that when you're meeting up with the bilingual Chinese girl, eating your Mexican meal, and driving through Little Armenia, that you don't have to be subject to Chinese law nor social mores, nor go through a lawsuit under the Mexican court system, nor suffer the fate of the Armenians...(you know...Armenians...those folks back home who experienced the Turks' views on 'multiculturalism' up close and personal..those folks whose 'country' no longer exists.).

Sounds like a nice day....but not particularly what I'd call an example of 'multiculturalism'. I have more than THAT degree of 'cosmopolitanism' in my own family...yet I don't consider us 'multicultural', since at the end of the day we're all Americans, and VERY glad for the opportunity NOT to have to experience all the 'wonders' of our "real" ancestral cultures...just the fun parts.

The COOKING 'back home' was GREAT...but the 'lifestyle'?? Not always, thankyouverymuch....
How is that culture?
So was slavery in the United States culture?
Was fascism in much of Europe culture?
Were the concentration camps in Europe culture?
The Spanish inquisitions?
The Witch hunts?

I don't get your views...and I don't get why they only apply to "third world" cultures.
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,907,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Mexico and the USA are virtually identical in that regard: if anything; Mx is even more nationalistic vis a vis the dominance of its (Spanish) language for all of its citizens---------and, rightly so. The USA needs to take the hint concerning English
It's weird. The Mexican government imposes stricter laws on that kind of thing, and yet you don't hear much about Mexicans saying things like "Speak Spanish, or giiit out!".
Still, Mexico, like the US, doesn't have a language at the federal level.
I know you don't know much about Mexico outside of stereotypes, but Mexico has a sizable immigrant population(not at the level of the United States, of course, but the US is a country built on and made up of immigrants).
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,731,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
It's weird. The Mexican government imposes stricter laws on that kind of thing, and yet you don't hear much about Mexicans saying things like "Speak Spanish, or giiit out!".
I know you don't know much about Mexico outside of stereotypes, but Mexico has a sizable immigrant population. There are languages besides Spanish and indigenous languages being spoken.
Probably due to most non Spanish speaking immigrants in Mexico already being there legally..........and, are not trying to live off Mx's economic system.

Mexico illegal alien problems are usually from Central Americans who typically speak Spanish.
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,907,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Probably due to most non Spanish speaking immigrants in Mexico already being there legally..........and, are not trying to live off Mx's economic system.

Mexico illegal alien problems are usually from Central Americans who typically speak Spanish.

Please don't talk like you know what you're talking about.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,731,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post

Please don't talk like you know what you're talking about.
ROFLMAO.............

Pot: meet kettle.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:27 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,657,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
How is that culture?
So was slavery in the United States culture?
Was fascism in much of Europe culture?
Were the concentration camps in Europe culture?
The Spanish inquisitions?
The Witch hunts?

I don't get your views...and I don't get why they only apply to "third world" cultures.
My views concern the inappropriateness of the USA as a nation, trying to go from a "united" country to now, just lately, a 'multicultural' one. I think it was our ability to overlook our differences which got us this far...not our emphasizing them.

Why do my views only apply to 'Third World' cultures? Who said THAT? My views are in regard to American society. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't want to see ANY other culture come to dominate the US, if it meant pushing aside what's made us great for something less 'efficient' but more 'colorful'...and I don't care WHERE that 'push' came from. 'Third World cultures' happen to be in the spotlight today, because THOSE are the cultures SOME of whom insist we 'adopt' their values into our own. Other cultures, once they arrived in the US as immigrants, made no such demands...instead, they chose to assimilate, wanting to 'become like us', rather than insisting we 'become like them'. If you're saying this shows a 'bias' toward First World, as opposed to Third World cultures, then so be it....but those are YOUR words, not mine. All I'm saying is that 'Third World' societies ARE Third World because their cultures prevent them from becoming more modern.....and if Third World cultures are adopted here, we'll become a Third World nation.

First World cultures? Generally, they're more open to assimilation..and few immigrants from THOSE places insist we 'accomodate' them...usually, THESE immigrants become 'more American than the Americans', and they don't complain about being 'marginalized'.

Why do I emphasize the 'negatives' of foreign cultures, rather than their 'good points'? Because their GOOD points, we can adopt for ourselves. Want to learn Swahili? Go ahead! Learn Greek cooking? FINE!....like Indonesian batik fabric design? GREAT! so do I...and you and I can adopt these things and make them our own. But what do we do about the wife-beaters, or the child molesters, or the violent religious 'zealots', if these things are someone's culture? Tell them it's 'OK'?.....

I emphasize the negative because I have no reason to exclude the positive. But if you're going to 'include' or 'adopt' an entire culture, you're going to be stuck with the WHOLE culture...and if not, then that's not REALLY multiculturalism, is it?
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:41 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,657,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
How is that culture?
So was slavery in the United States culture?
Was fascism in much of Europe culture?
Were the concentration camps in Europe culture?
The Spanish inquisitions?
The Witch hunts?

I don't get your views...and I don't get why they only apply to "third world" cultures.
To be specific in regards to this post, YES...all those things you mention (above) were, at one time, part of the 'culture' of these places....and EACH of these 'attributes' was rejected by that culture, often at the expense of painful, violent conflict, and these things were 'purged' from those cultures when the MEMBERS of those cultures became morally outraged, or sick enough at heart, to change thes practices.

I see NO reason now, after all this painful 'purging', that we should now step aside and 'accept' into our midst, cultures which have NOT reformed themselves, and still, to this day, practice much of what you mentioned above...not "back then", but TODAY. I don't WANT these cultures here, and if their members DO come here, I want them to CHANGE these practices, not insist that we 'adapt' them into our society.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:14 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,095,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Sounds VERY cosmopolitan, indeed. And how fortunate for you, that when you're meeting up with the bilingual Chinese girl, eating your Mexican meal, and driving through Little Armenia, that you don't have to be subject to Chinese law nor social mores, nor go through a lawsuit under the Mexican court system, nor suffer the fate of the Armenians...(you know...Armenians...those folks back home who experienced the Turks' views on 'multiculturalism' up close and personal..those folks whose 'country' no longer exists.).

Sounds like a nice day....but not particularly what I'd call an example of 'multiculturalism'. I have more than THAT degree of 'cosmopolitanism' in my own family...yet I don't consider us 'multicultural', since at the end of the day we're all Americans, and VERY glad for the opportunity NOT to have to experience all the 'wonders' of our "real" ancestral cultures...just the fun parts.

The COOKING 'back home' was GREAT...but the 'lifestyle'?? Not always, thankyouverymuch....
Cosmopolitanism is multiculturalism. Being cosmopolitan, by definition, is the idea that people have mutual respect of different cultures. A cosmpolitan city is a multicultural one as well.

If your family is "cosmopolitan" they are, by default, multicultural.

The traditions of many nations are not that great. America had a tradition of slavery, genocide, witch hunts, and gender discrimination. So if you go on that basis that culture is the inclusive sum of all it's history and that culture is not flexible...we should reject all humanity.

The Chinese actually are changing in their freedom of expression (protests in the recent milk contanimation are a testament to the rising freedoms in China). Mexico's courts, though corrupt, are getting less corrupt (according to a recent study, Mexico is becoming less corrupt). The Armenian genocide could be comparable with the genocides here in North America and Europe. However, modern Armenia is not rife with genocide.

I don't see a problem with being bilingual and proclaiming that I'm multicultural. This does not make you any less American. Completely conforming to the stereotype of apple pie and baseball works for some, but not for all. Many 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants retain their home language. The immigrant newspapers are the only ones growing in the US. This is because they offer a different perspective, one that they can relate to more. Also, with the rise in communications, you can keep in touch with your home country. Thus, there is less of a need nowdays to completely forget your language and culture. You can be both American and whatever.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:31 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,657,382 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Cosmopolitanism is multiculturalism. Being cosmopolitan, by definition, is the idea that people have mutual respect of different cultures. A cosmpolitan city is a multicultural one as well.

If your family is "cosmopolitan" they are, by default, multicultural.

The traditions of many nations are not that great. America had a tradition of slavery, genocide, witch hunts, and gender discrimination. So if you go on that basis that culture is the inclusive sum of all it's history and that culture is not flexible...we should reject all humanity.

The Chinese actually are changing in their freedom of expression (protests in the recent milk contanimation are a testament to the rising freedoms in China). Mexico's courts, though corrupt, are getting less corrupt (according to a recent study, Mexico is becoming less corrupt). The Armenian genocide could be comparable with the genocides here in North America and Europe. However, modern Armenia is not rife with genocide.

I don't see a problem with being bilingual and proclaiming that I'm multicultural. This does not make you any less American. Completely conforming to the stereotype of apple pie and baseball works for some, but not for all. Many 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants retain their home language. The immigrant newspapers are the only ones growing in the US. This is because they offer a different perspective, one that they can relate to more. Also, with the rise in communications, you can keep in touch with your home country. Thus, there is less of a need nowdays to completely forget your language and culture. You can be both American and whatever.
I'm not particularly fond of apple pie.....and baseball, I seldom watch. I'm not a sports fan at ALL, unless my granddaughter's playing soccer. No, at this superficial level, I suppose I'm not much of an 'American' at all.

But I insist on 'women's rights'.....the right of a young girl to an education...and I INSIST that we live in a framework of law....one that supersedes even family..that's right, a system that requires that, even if a 'crook' is your fellow religious believer; even if he's your same ethnicity; even if he's your BROTHER....it's your duty...your MORAL OBLIGATION, if put to the test, to take the side of "law" over family, friend, or 'fellow ethnic'. If you can do THAT, I consider you 'assimilated'.....but so far, many people can't seem to make that leap.....and that concerns me, because in a wildly multiethnic, multiracial, diverse society, if we can't find commonanlity in 'the system', then perhaps we can't find it anywhere.

And no, compelling as it may sound, I do NOT believe a society can exist for long operating on a belief that "SOME rules are OK for SOME people, but not for EVERYONE....because we're all different...and what's good for YOU, isn't neccessarily good for ME". Nope, that won't work....it's practically a guarantee of strife, discord, and eventually violence. And that's ultimately what multiculturalism 'demands'..that ALL societal parameters and 'yardsticks' be viewed and evaluated from the perspective of 'culture'. Sounds 'warm and fuzzy', of course...but in actual practice? Anger, frustration, and violence would be a certainty...
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