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Old 09-05-2008, 05:41 PM
 
Location: South Bay Native
9,758 posts, read 13,814,313 times
Reputation: 13802

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
It's not that it's easier, it's just not a viable option. If they had the means or the time to fix the economy themselves (the socially poor) they probably would. If you couldn't grow food in the desert, wouldn't you move to where the water is and ask for forgiveness later if it meant survival?

And that's what it comes down to for most who cross illegally - survival. What would you do to feed your family? I know I'd take some huge risks to feed my daughter and keep her healthy. It's still a human issue.


Oh please stop it with the "they can't survive unless they break the law because they have nothing to eat" baloney - I'm not buying what you're selling. Take a look at this chart and then get back to me
Attached Thumbnails
Debate on illegal immigration grows larger-fat_country_chart.gif  
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:42 PM
 
8,972 posts, read 10,705,749 times
Reputation: 2950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
You see, that's where I have to question things... yes, crossing the border illegally is just that - illegal. But you can't just look at it in black and white, there is some gray area. You have to consider the level of the crime and the circumstances surrounding the situation, do you not? What is the severity of the crime and how much is it really hurting others? I've heard people say that it's costing billions and I've heard others say it's not costing us as much as we think. Who should we listen to?

I mean seriously, just because I brought up an unpopular viewpoint look how people are referring to me in their replies. I'm being talked down to. Since I said I had family in Mexico, some assumed I'm Mexican and am part of "them". Yet I'm white. My wife is a US citizen born in Mexico and came here legally. Look at the hostility here.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. I'm not saying the illegal immigrants shouldn't bear some responsibility here, but the thing is, many of them have two choices - endure unbelievable hardships in the rural parts of Mexico or risk coming here to work and support their family. So yes, they're breaking a law, but in their minds, they're doing what they have to do to survive without doing something morally wrong (like committing theft).
With all due respect, I find your post compassionate and well-intentioned. However, I disagree with you on many points. Whereas illegal immigration at one time (I've known many illegals, over a space of 40 years or more..and even had a few "once illegals" in my extended family), was once a 'victimless crime', I don't agree at all that it still is. Illegal immigration has mushroomed WAY out of control, it has become far more divisive, contentious, and serous than it ever was before, and I believe it's tremendously expensive to our society. In addition, illegals are no longer content with their 'lot', and are far more angry and resentful than they were in former times.

I realize that some would see this as a situation with no 'moral' dimension...but I disagree. Assuming the US is a 'fair' society, with 'fair' laws, written BY the people, FOR the people...then violating our laws IS immoral..whether it's a major violation or not. And certainly multiple MILLIONS of 'violations' of ANY law is a 'bad' thing.

To say the illegals don't 'see themselves as criminals' is not a satisfactory reason to excuse them. Probably NO non-violent criminal "feels" like a 'bad guy'...(indeed, even some VIOLENT criminals feel the same).

Nobody's advocating "hurting" illegals, anymore than you're "hurting" the passing public when you lock your door. You lock your door to keep unauthorized people from entering your home, not to "hurt" them, "embarrass" them, or be "mean" to them.

Countries have borders. This is a remarkably 'decent' country, as countries go. Enforcing our laws is not 'inhumane', even if lawbreakers don't see the reasoning behind this.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:47 PM
 
Location: South Bay Native
9,758 posts, read 13,814,313 times
Reputation: 13802
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
With all due respect, I find your post compassionate and well-intentioned. However, I disagree with you on many points. Whereas illegal immigration at one time (I've known many illegals, over a space of 40 years or more..and even had a few "once illegals" in my extended family), was once a 'victimless crime', I don't agree at all that it still is. Illegal immigration has mushroomed WAY out of control, it has become far more divisive, contentious, and serous than it ever was before, and I believe it's tremendously expensive to our society. In addition, illegals are no longer content with their 'lot', and are far more angry and resentful than they were in former times.

I realize that some would see this as a situation with no 'moral' dimension...but I disagree. Assuming the US is a 'fair' society, with 'fair' laws, written BY the people, FOR the people...then violating our laws IS immoral..whether it's a major violation or not. And certainly multiple MILLIONS of 'violations' of ANY law is a 'bad' thing.

To say the illegals don't 'see themselves as criminals' is not a satisfactory reason to excuse them. Probably NO non-violent criminal "feels" like a 'bad guy'...(indeed, even some VIOLENT criminals feel the same).

Nobody's advocating "hurting" illegals, anymore than you're "hurting" the passing public when you lock your door. You lock your door to keep unauthorized people from entering your home, not to "hurt" them, "embarrass" them, or be "mean" to them.

Countries have borders. This is a remarkably 'decent' country, as countries go. Enforcing our laws is not 'inhumane', even if lawbreakers don't see the reasoning behind this.
Oh mac, where on earth is your compassion? Our poor, downtrodden, starving-to-death brothers south of the border - who will feed and clothe them?
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,291 posts, read 11,492,543 times
Reputation: 6428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
You see, that's where I have to question things... yes, crossing the border illegally is just that - illegal. But you can't just look at it in black and white, there is some gray area. You have to consider the level of the crime and the circumstances surrounding the situation, do you not? What is the severity of the crime and how much is it really hurting others? I've heard people say that it's costing billions and I've heard others say it's not costing us as much as we think. Who should we listen to?

I mean seriously, just because I brought up an unpopular viewpoint look how people are referring to me in their replies. I'm being talked down to. Since I said I had family in Mexico, some assumed I'm Mexican and am part of "them". Yet I'm white. My wife is a US citizen born in Mexico and came here legally. Look at the hostility here.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. I'm not saying the illegal immigrants shouldn't bear some responsibility here, but the thing is, many of them have two choices - endure unbelievable hardships in the rural parts of Mexico or risk coming here to work and support their family. So yes, they're breaking a law, but in their minds, they're doing what they have to do to survive without doing something morally wrong (like committing theft).
A reasonable post. Unfortunately US citizens are being hurt every day by illegals. My first priority as it should be for our law makers, enforcers and reps. US citizens are paying the price to facilitate the life styles of illegals.
Our economy is being damaged.
Our very way of life is being undermined by those who have no respect for our laws.
Its not that I have a thing against them as human beings. Its that they have no regard for us.
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:00 PM
 
Location: CO
1,598 posts, read 2,158,170 times
Reputation: 457
Quote:
The severity of the crime? How much is it hurting others? Consider surrounding circumstances? All subjective hooey.
Is that right? Then how do we determine punishment for crimes in our own justice system? Why don't we give murderers tickets or speeders life sentences? Because we take into consideration the severity of the crime. Isn't that what civilized nations do?

Quote:
Who talked down to you? Who called you a Mexican? Who is hostile about you or your wife? Seems like you're perceiving a lot of slights that never happened.
Here are a couple quotes....

"
I just read that he has family in Mexico - gee, who would have thought?"

How is that supposed to be perceived?

In reply to the above quote:

"They all do. Many of them are anchor babies/Dreamies waiting on amnesty for their breeders and the opportunity to chain migrate their millions of famila that they left behind."

Was I wrong to think he was referring to me when he said "they" in reference to an "anchor baby"? Were there not any slights in those comments? No hostility there at all. You're right, I'm reading way too much into non-hostile attitudes.
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:08 PM
 
Location: CO
1,598 posts, read 2,158,170 times
Reputation: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
A reasonable post. Unfortunately US citizens are being hurt every day by illegals. My first priority as it should be for our law makers, enforcers and reps. US citizens are paying the price to facilitate the life styles of illegals.
Our economy is being damaged.
Our very way of life is being undermined by those who have no respect for our laws.
Its not that I have a thing against them as human beings. Its that they have no regard for us.
Thanks tinman01, believe it or not, I really do want to have a reasonable discussion on this. I'm not pro illegal immigration, but I'd like to see some rational solutions.

And you touched on the heart of the debate which I'd like more stats on. How much money is it actually costing us? How much is it damaging our economy when the cheap labor rates keep prices low? How many crimes are being committed by illegal immigrants compared to US citizens? How many of them do not pay income taxes? We know they all have to pay sales taxes, and those who own homes pay property taxes.

It seems like so many people make assumptions and are not taking all the data into account. I'm sure the issue is causing problems and it is costing us money. But how much exactly? How much would prices on various goods go up if we didn't have the cheap labor?
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:15 PM
 
Location: CO
1,598 posts, read 2,158,170 times
Reputation: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post


Oh please stop it with the "they can't survive unless they break the law because they have nothing to eat" baloney - I'm not buying what you're selling. Take a look at this chart and then get back to me
Well hey, you call it baloney all you want. I've seen some horrible living conditions having been there a number of times. Maybe if you saw it you'd get a better idea of why people would look for opportunities here. Take a drive through Mexico and tell me how much that graph applies. All it really means is that there are some really rich people living there too.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,070 posts, read 2,293,707 times
Reputation: 382
Ludachris,

There are many things that illegal immigration does to American citizens, especially those citizens on the lowest rungs of the 'food chain'. EVERY job taken by an illegal alien is a job that was FORMERLY done by a citizen or legal immigrant. EVERY job.

What happens to those millions of LEGAL residents when scumbag employers replace them with a more desperate workforce? They either get jobs paying LESS than what they previously earned; or wind up on the 'public dole', raising tax rates for still-employed Americans in order to cover the increase in costs of our social welfare programs.

It has been estimated that the wage suppression aspect of illegal immigration ALONE is costing the American worker over $200 BILLION a year. When you start adding the costs of education, infrastructure, law enforcement and benefits to 'anchor babies', we're talking about maybe 3/4 of a TRILLION dollars, EACH AND EVERY YEAR! I don't care WHO you are, that's A LOT of $$$$!

Additionally, illegal aliens send about $40 billion dollars a year OUT OF THE COUNTRY; money that would, if spent HERE, would create the 'multiplier effect', and have an ENORMOUS positive impact on our economy AND our citizens.

I'd be happy to have a deeper discussion about these things, as I have LIVED through the deleterious effects PERSONALLY, so if you have any questions about how I feel or why I'd certainly respond, without rancor.

What do you want to know?
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Missouri
3,641 posts, read 3,046,226 times
Reputation: 762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
It's not that it's easier, it's just not a viable option. If they had the means or the time to fix the economy themselves (the socially poor) they probably would. If you couldn't grow food in the desert, wouldn't you move to where the water is and ask for forgiveness later if it meant survival?

And that's what it comes down to for most who cross illegally - survival. What would you do to feed your family? I know I'd take some huge risks to feed my daughter and keep her healthy. It's still a human issue.
Your screen name fits you quite well. They grow things just fine in the desert. Maybe you should learn more about a region you say you are familiar with. Your posts show that you are not at all.
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:27 PM
 
Location: CO
1,598 posts, read 2,158,170 times
Reputation: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
What makes them special and gives them special privileges in taking advantage of our nation vs. the billions of truly impoverished throughout the world? Did you know Mexico ranks in the top among all other countries in the world for obesity? Do you know of anyone starving to death in Mexico? Who really cares what is going on in the mind of people who are coming here illegally? Again - the fact that you are inserting morals and subjectivity into this makes for a truly weak stance in this debate. They are committing theft the moment they cross the border, whether or not their "morals" tell them they are doing nothing wrong.
Nothing makes them special or gives them privilege over other impoverished people. You've obviously spent little or no time driving around in Mexico. If you have you'd know how bad the poverty is and how bad the crime is because of the poverty.

How is inserting morals and subjectivity on this making for a weak stance? I don't understand. Isn't that the sign of a civilized society?
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