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Old 08-21-2008, 06:58 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,033,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gortamor View Post
No, I am trying to explain, in a simplified way, the position of those who are the subject of this thread, although the theology from which their position derives is too complex to explain here.
the theology of the catholic church is not in question.....their beliefs are very clear on the matter, however it is irrelevant in the face of the law. Warren Jeffs believed that god told him to marry off teenage girls into plural marriages with much older (and occasionally related) men. Theologically, he was acting as his moral compass dictated.....he was breaking US law in regards to underage girls and polygamy, but he believed he was acting in the face of unjust laws. Was he right?
Because by encouraging illegal immigration, the catholic church is also encouraging lawlessness, coyotes who have been known to kill those they are suppossed to ferry across, and once the get into the us alive they often find themselves working for sub standard pay and in dangerous working conditions while at the same time acting as de facto scabs to labor unions. I won't even go into the harm done to people who get their ssn stolen. Bottom line, illegal immigration is not a crime that begins and ends when the immigrant steps foot over the border. It snowballs, and illegal is often the one that ends up victimized the most.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
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Originally Posted by camping! View Post
The catholic church is very liberal -- with the exception of abortion -- so this does not surprise me at all. I also wouldn't be surprised if they noticed the money to stop flowing so freely. Catholics have learned many things in the past several decades, the biggest of which is that tithing (and the lack thereof) talks.
And; what you described is a slap in the face of those believers who are true Catholics IMHO.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:14 PM
 
349 posts, read 573,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
the theology of the catholic church is not in question.....their beliefs are very clear on the matter, however it is irrelevant in the face of the law. Warren Jeffs believed that god told him to marry off teenage girls into plural marriages with much older (and occasionally related) men. Theologically, he was acting as his moral compass dictated.....he was breaking US law in regards to underage girls and polygamy, but he believed he was acting in the face of unjust laws. Was he right?
Because by encouraging illegal immigration, the catholic church is also encouraging lawlessness, coyotes who have been known to kill those they are suppossed to ferry across, and once the get into the us alive they often find themselves working for sub standard pay and in dangerous working conditions while at the same time acting as de facto scabs to labor unions. I won't even go into the harm done to people who get their ssn stolen. Bottom line, illegal immigration is not a crime that begins and ends when the immigrant steps foot over the border. It snowballs, and illegal is often the one that ends up victimized the most.
First, as I said before, if the moral cost of breaking the law (the key word here being forcing teenage girls to marry etc.) is more than obeying the law, the law should be obeyed.

However the immigrants know the danger, and choose to come anyway - for a comparatively better way of life. And you cannot say that because someone is undocumented, they will commit a crime - so there is no direct correlation there.

I do agree on one thing, they are more likely to be victimised and abused than others. The solution is - legalise them.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Originally Posted by gortamor View Post
So you are implying then, that those who hid people from the Nazis were wrong for doing so, as they broke the law?
One huge difference here:

The Nazi's were out there imprisoning and murdering people for things the latter had no control over (race/ethnicity, etc) whereas we (Americans) are trying to keep illegals out of the USA---------not killing 'em.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gortamor View Post
First, as I said before, if the moral cost of breaking the law (the key word here being forcing teenage girls to marry etc.) is more than obeying the law, the law should be obeyed.

However the immigrants know the danger, and choose to come anyway - for a comparatively better way of life. And you cannot say that because someone is undocumented, they will commit a crime - so there is no direct correlation there.

I do agree on one thing, they are more likely to be victimised and abused than others. The solution is - legalise them.
No: the solution is sterner enforcement of our immigration laws--------up to and including seizing the assets of said illegals when caught here in the USA.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:21 PM
 
349 posts, read 573,592 times
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
One huge difference here:

The Nazi's were out there imprisoning and murdering people for things the latter had no control over (race/ethnicity, etc) whereas we (Americans) are trying to keep illegals out of the USA---------not killing 'em.
As I said earlier, mate, it is all a matter of degree.
If I lie and you lose your job due to it, that is immoral. If I lie and you die because of it, that is immoral and has a much worse result. But it does not erase the immorality of the first action.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:23 PM
 
349 posts, read 573,592 times
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
No: the solution is sterner enforcement of our immigration laws--------up to and including seizing the assets of said illegals when caught here in the USA.
The political will, for various reasons, is not there and will not be there. So is better to legalise them.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gortamor View Post
As I said earlier, mate, it is all a matter of degree.
If I lie and you lose your job due to it, that is immoral. If I lie and you die because of it, that is immoral and has a much worse result. But it does not erase the immorality of the first action.
Sometimes there is a need for arbitrary rules.................provided there is a system of checks and balances to reign in the extremists for any cause.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:31 PM
 
349 posts, read 573,592 times
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Sometimes there is a need for arbitrary rules.................provided there is a system of checks and balances to reign in the extremists for any cause.
Why in the world would there ever be a need for arbitrary rules? It smacks of dictatorship.
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:19 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 65,253,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gortamor View Post
The political will, for various reasons, is not there and will not be there. So is better to legalise them.

ROFL!!! Excuse me. The BETTER thing is for people from other countries to stay in their own country unless and until they can legally immigrate to another host country. That way the law is being followed.

Your argument is the same as saying - People are snorting coke and getting thrown in jail so . . it is better to legalize coke (rather than follow the law).
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