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Old 08-21-2008, 08:21 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 65,265,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gortamor View Post
As I said earlier, mate, it is all a matter of degree.
If I lie and you lose your job due to it, that is immoral. If I lie and you die because of it, that is immoral and has a much worse result. But it does not erase the immorality of the first action.
No, sir. It is not a matter of degree. It is either legal or it is illegal.

You can't be just a little bit illegal. You know - kinda like - you can't be just a little bit pregnant.
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:42 PM
 
Location: San Antonio Texas
11,435 posts, read 15,946,342 times
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[quote=gortamor;4946745]Sometimes breaking the law is necessary - if said law is immoral. For instance, people who hid those hunted by the Nazis were 'breaking the law' - yet would you say what they did was bad?

'Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, but unto God that which is God's'[/QUOTE

the church ppl were hiding actual citizens of those lands who were being hunted down solely b/c of their race, faith, sexual orientation. the illegals are here solely for economic freedom, not b/c they are escaping persecution from their homelands. frankly, it is insulting to the nazis' victims to compare the two.

Last edited by wehotex; 08-21-2008 at 08:51 PM..
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:50 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,035,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And; what you described is a slap in the face of those believers who are true Catholics IMHO.
No insult intended.....I was trying to say that money talks, and parishes that I am familiar with have taken that tact when unhappy with the actions of their archdiocese. My 73 year old mother has stopped filling the envelope marked for the archdiocese as a whole because of her disgust with the current archbishop. Believe me, noone could be a truer Catholic then her.
Also, you have to admit that with the exception of abortion and the whole female priest thing, RC is very socially liberally when it comes to things such as illegal immigration, the death penalty and nuclear arms.
Again, I didn't mean to insult you, just describing what I know of the catholic church.
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:02 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,035,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gortamor View Post
First, as I said before, if the moral cost of breaking the law (the key word here being forcing teenage girls to marry etc.) is more than obeying the law, the law should be obeyed.

However the immigrants know the danger, and choose to come anyway - for a comparatively better way of life. And you cannot say that because someone is undocumented, they will commit a crime - so there is no direct correlation there.

I do agree on one thing, they are more likely to be victimised and abused than others. The solution is - legalise them.

So what exactly is your position? Because laws will be broken -- in this case immigration -- it is better to have no laws at all? Or is it only immigration that you feel should become a what? A free for all, with the exception of terrorist.
But heres the thing, if you acknowledge that we should do, say background checks on potential immigrants two things would immediately occur;
1) It would take time, and what if people don't want to wait their turn? What if they just walk over the border anyway? would you still grant them citizenship even though they circumvented the process?

2) Would we judge others unworthy? What other criminal behaviors would an applicant have that would be considered 'bad'? Shoplifting conviction? Drugs? DUI? Homicide? Who would get to decide? And if each case has its own merits and/or degrees of morality, wouldn't that take a long time to sort out?

Basically, it seems to me (and please correct me if I am wrong) that you are looking for an immediate feel good amnesty -- everyone gets in! Everyone gets citizenship! When the reality is, the country could not possible support the millions who would flock here, and even if it could there would be no way to do it in an orderly, safe fashion. And as I said, who would get to decide if everything is just, relative? As mean spirited as it may sound, there must be public order and that means laws....even laws that you may not agree with.
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:13 PM
 
Location: San Antonio Texas
11,435 posts, read 15,946,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
No insult intended.....I was trying to say that money talks, and parishes that I am familiar with have taken that tact when unhappy with the actions of their archdiocese. My 73 year old mother has stopped filling the envelope marked for the archdiocese as a whole because of her disgust with the current archbishop. Believe me, noone could be a truer Catholic then her.
Also, you have to admit that with the exception of abortion and the whole female priest thing, RC is very socially liberally when it comes to things such as illegal immigration, the death penalty and nuclear arms.
Again, I didn't mean to insult you, just describing what I know of the catholic church.
the catholic church is NOT liberal when it comes to CIVIL marriage for ALL citizens. in fact, it butts in everytime that there is something political on the ballots. they like illegal immigration b/c they want to keep their pews full and the church offerings coming in.
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:20 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,035,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wehotex View Post
the catholic church is NOT liberal when it comes to CIVIL marriage for ALL citizens. in fact, it butts in everytime that there is something political on the ballots. they like illegal immigration b/c they want to keep their pews full and the church offerings coming in.
As I said, there are exceptions, homosexuality is certainly one of them. Still, tell me that illegal immigration is not the provence of the left leaning liberal? It certainly is not what I would call a traditional conservative cause
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
No insult intended.....I was trying to say that money talks, and parishes that I am familiar with have taken that tact when unhappy with the actions of their archdiocese. My 73 year old mother has stopped filling the envelope marked for the archdiocese as a whole because of her disgust with the current archbishop. Believe me, noone could be a truer Catholic then her.
Also, you have to admit that with the exception of abortion and the whole female priest thing, RC is very socially liberally when it comes to things such as illegal immigration, the death penalty and nuclear arms.
Again, I didn't mean to insult you, just describing what I know of the catholic church.
My bad: I was referring to the subject matter you were describing----------not you, personally.
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:29 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,035,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
My bad: I was referring to the subject matter you were describing----------not you, personally.
No worries
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Old 08-23-2008, 07:00 AM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,897,260 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Yes, those things happened, and I am sure there are still pedophile priests out there just as there are pedophile rabbis, reverends and little league coaches. They tend to go where the boys are, if you know what I mean.
What I object to, is the erroneous insistance that this is still going on. Also, by asserting that this is the case, you are saying that catholic parishoners are also either too stupid to know what the enlightened xtians know or are somehow complicit in having their children abused[/b]. You can't have it both ways. Insult what was, but don't try to make it seem that this is now the norm.
Quote:
Friday, August 22, 2008

Priest tried to order porn movie, lied to victim's parents
Anaheim police, county probation pushed for sex-offender listing, but didn't get it.

SANTA ANA – A Catholic priest sentenced to 180 days in jail this week for taking a 17-year-old parishioner to a motel room had tried to rent a pornographic movie and lied to the victim’s parents about the teen’s whereabouts, according to court records made public today.

The Rev. Luis Eduardo Ramirez, ousted from Our Lady of the Pillar in Santa Ana after his January arrest, told the victim’s parents that he was taking their son to a youth seminar the night of Jan. 3, Orange County Deputy Probation Officer Vicki L. Pedrin wrote in a Aug. 7th probation report.

Instead, the priest drove to a restaurant in Orange where he ordered two margaritas for the victim, then brought the boy to Cortona Inn and Suites in Anaheim, the report says. There, the priest rented a room, and tried to order a pornographic film.

“The clerk remembered the defendant because he came in twice to pay for the movie, since adult movies cost more,” Pedrin said.

The report shows police investigated the case by interviewing independent witnesses and reviewing phone records, text messages and videotape. It also indicates that both Anaheim police and county probation lobbied for Ramirez to be a lifelong registered sex offender – saying he was a danger to children.

In June, the priest pleaded guilty to two misdemeanors. Three other misdemeanors – furnishing/selling alcohol to a minor, contributing to the delinquency of a minor and annoying or molesting a child – were dropped. He also was not required to register as a sex offender.

“My office is disappointed he was not held to answer for the things he really did … This man will continue to have access to children,” Anaheim Detective Ryan Tozzie said in the report.
News: Catholic priest tried to order porn movie and lied to victim's parents | ramirez, report, priest, teen, victim - OCRegister.com
Apparently, these parents think like you do. Still think it's no longer going on? Perhaps you need to think again.
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Old 08-23-2008, 09:08 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,035,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
Apparently, these parents think like you do. Still think it's no longer going on? Perhaps you need to think again.
Jebezus! Would you read what I wrote already?! I have stated numerous times that yes, it is going on though not on the wide scale it used to. The reason for that is that pedophiles infiltrate any and all professions that allow them to be near kids -- their prey. And that would include pastors/priests/imams/rabbis hell, any authority in any religion plus teachers plus little league coaches plus babysitters plus counselors not to mention pedophiles who go out of their way to date women who have children as well as those pedophiles that like to breed their own victims.

Now, are we clear?
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