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Old 08-24-2008, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Really, this little 'quip' is the crux of the entire matter....the 'availing' that these folks do, is an entirely SELECTIVE one. They (apparently) intend to press for full protection of the law, and the full benefits thereof, while obviously having chosen NOT to obey ONE of the laws (if not several) that would have prevented them from coming here at ALL, to do any later 'availing'.

Getting around that unpleasant, awkward, and inconvenient fact is what causes much of the anger and 'shifting positions' behind the whole 'illegal' matter. The very term 'pro-illegal', in itself, is a textbook example of 'selective obedience' to law....It's as if someone's saying, "OK, agreed..they shouldn't BE HERE. But now that they ARE here, let's talk about getting them 'fair treatment' "....The whole argument does involve a lot of 'selectivity', for sure.
Yes, they do tend to be quite "selective" in their compliance to our laws. I guess it's a matter of convenience. Some of our laws are simply too onerous.
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:21 AM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,275,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Yes, they do tend to be quite "selective" in their compliance to our laws. I guess it's a matter of convenience. Some of our laws are simply too onerous.
But their American-born children aren't being selective about anything. They are born into this country and presumably have no plans to leave. I strongly believe that this alone satisfies the "minimum contacts" of personal jurisdiction and thus should continue to be all that is required to be granted US citizenship.
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:27 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
If illegal aliens do in fact plan to "avail themselves to the laws of this country" please explain why they have chosen to flagrantly ignore them.
full court shot -> basket
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:27 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
American citizens flagrantly ignore laws all of the time but we are still said to "avail ourselves to the laws of this country." You can still break some laws but avail yourself to others. Just because you're in a hurry and going 65 MPH on the Beltway in a 55 MPH zone doesn't mean that you are not availing yourself to this country's laws; I don't know you well but I would venture a guess that in general you DO avail yourself to this country's laws. However, this isn't really about the illegal immigrants; it's about their American-born children. Due to their parents' choice to move to this country (albeit in violation of this country's immigration laws) with plans to stay and avail themselves to this country's laws once getting here and in the future, these children are born into the country where their parents plan to raise them; these children should be subject to our jurisdiction and should be given citizenship the moment they are born.
Crisp, you're capable of MUCH better reasoning than this!....I've read it! I'll certainly agree with you that tiny 'anchor babies' can't be faulted for their parents' 'sins'...and that the law IS presently interpreted (erroneously, IMHO) so as to legalize all 'anchor babies' whether we like it or not....can't argue with that.

But PLEASE..no more 'breaking the speed limit' or 'jaywalking' or even 'littering' comparisons to show that 'we ALL break the law, so therefore' etc etc etc. This is NOT a good analogy at all...though it's often brought up.

If you honestly want to compare illegal immigration with similar forms of 'us' (legal citizens) breaking the law, a MUCH better example would be that of 'moving in' and pitching a tent on someone's property without his permission....or parking your disabled car PERMANENTLY in his driveway...or building a house, illegally, in a public park. These are more-or-less 'permanent' and ongoing breaches, not such transient things as exceeding the speed limit. Illegal immigration involves a pretty much 'permanent' situation. The resentment it causes in the 'locals' is far different from that caused by the occasional 'speed demon'.

Last edited by macmeal; 08-24-2008 at 11:37 AM..
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
American citizens flagrantly ignore laws all of the time but we are still said to "avail ourselves to the laws of this country." You can still break some laws but avail yourself to others. Just because you're in a hurry and going 65 MPH on the Beltway in a 55 MPH zone doesn't mean that you are not availing yourself to this country's laws; I don't know you well but I would venture a guess that in general you DO avail yourself to this country's laws. However, this isn't really about the illegal immigrants; it's about their American-born children. Due to their parents' choice to move to this country (albeit in violation of this country's immigration laws) with plans to stay and avail themselves to this country's laws once getting here and in the future, these children are born into the country where their parents plan to raise them; these children should be subject to our jurisdiction and should be given citizenship the moment they are born. These children have no choice in this matter; they are born into this country by no choice of their own and shouldn't be denied the protection of this country's laws due to their parents' choice to ignore this country's immigration laws.
I’m surprised you have resorted to the “Americans commit crimes and disobey laws too” mantra. I really considered that tactic beneath you.

All individuals residing in this country are expected to obey our laws. This applies to diplomats, foreign students, or anyone else residing in this country. If the only requirement for birthright citizenship is to avail themselves to the laws of this country, no one would be excluded.

Do you consider identity theft and document fraud as “availing themselves to the laws of this land” once they are here?

Furthermore, no infant has a choice in the matter. Why should infants born to illegal aliens be treated differently?

If as you assert, “the bulk of illegals are here to stay” why do they resist assimilation? Why do they continue to have an allegiance to their countries of origin? Moreover, why should the 14th Amendment apply to ‘future’ intentions of individuals with no legal presence in this country? More importantly, why should people with no regard for our laws be rewarded with citizenship for their offspring? Why do they deserve anything?
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:37 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I’m surprised you have resorted to the “Americans commit crimes and disobey laws too” mantra. I really considered that tactic beneath you.
That's the SECOND person, Crisp, who feels like this post isn't up to your normal standard...
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:37 AM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,275,065 times
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I respectfully disagree. My argument relies very little on that example that I gave. I shouldn't have even given the example because I have a bad feeling that people are going to get caught up in it. This is not about the illegal immigrants, however, it's about the children. In the context of this argument it doesn't matter to me that their parents broke US immigration laws. The point is that these children are born into this country, presumably have no plans to leave, and presumably will form meaningful contacts in this country. The concept of intent to remain (or to continue to regularly visit or do business in) in a certain jurisdiction is important in determining whether the minimum contacts requirement has been met. It is clear to me that these American-born children intend to remain in this country and avail themselves to its laws. Get past the parents' lawbreaking and focus on what actually matters: the children.
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:38 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
American citizens flagrantly ignore laws all of the time but we are still said to "avail ourselves to the laws of this country." You can still break some laws but avail yourself to others. Just because you're in a hurry and going 65 MPH on the Beltway in a 55 MPH zone doesn't mean that you are not availing yourself to this country's laws; I don't know you well but I would venture a guess that in general you DO avail yourself to this country's laws. However, this isn't really about the illegal immigrants; it's about their American-born children. Due to their parents' choice to move to this country (albeit in violation of this country's immigration laws) with plans to stay and avail themselves to this country's laws once getting here and in the future, these children are born into the country where their parents plan to raise them; these children should be subject to our jurisdiction and should be given citizenship the moment they are born. These children have no choice in this matter; they are born into this country by no choice of their own and shouldn't be denied the protection of this country's laws due to their parents' choice to ignore this country's immigration laws.
Deport the parents. They are in the US illegally. I don't care if they have 'plans to stay'. Neither do I care if they have plans to raise their anchor children here. They can take their offspring with them or leave them here.
Since they have no qualms whatsoever about screwing us over big time, we should have none about repatriating them to their home countries.
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:41 AM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,275,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
That's the SECOND person, Crisp, who feels like this post isn't up to your normal standard...
Again, I respectfully disagree. I would never excuse the actions of illegal aliens with a statement that "Americans break laws too!" - here, I am simply demonstrating that you mustn't obey all laws of this country to "avail yourself to this country's laws" in general. I feel that my example was a valid one but I agree that I should have never given it. You guys are going to get caught up in it and distracted from the REAL issue: the children of these illegal immigrants who have broken NO laws and who have the intent to remain in this country and avail themselves to its laws.
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Old 08-24-2008, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Deport the parents. They are in the US illegally. I don't care if they have 'plans to stay'. Neither do I care if they have plans to raise their anchor children here. They can take their offspring with them or leave them here.
Since they have no qualms whatsoever about screwing us over big time, we should have none about repatriating them to their home countries.
That you andreabeth: I was getting make that exact same post verbatim but you beat me to it.

Of course; eliminating the Anchor Baby loophole (grandfather in the present ones) would take care of the rest of the problem.
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