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Old 08-24-2008, 08:56 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,276,533 times
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I think it's just as disturbing and offensive to suggest that a child who is born and raised in this country is any less American than you. To suggest that a child born and raised here has no cultural and civic allegiance to this country is completely off-base in all of my experience. I was raised with numerous children of immigrants and all of those children are proud Americans, including the few whose parents came to this country illegally. You cannot name any amount of military service or number of generations your family has been in this country that will convince me that these people are any less American than you.

To answer your question, courts mostly speak of the "minimum contacts" requirement for personal jurisdiction in a state-to-state context. However, the concept can easily be imported to speaking of federal courts. In my opinion (and this is not wrong or right, it's just my opinion), simply being born on US soil is enough to fulfill the "minimum contacts" requirement for citizenship because children born in this country (in my opinion) should automatically be subject to this country's jurisdiction regardless of whether or not their parents are subject to that same jurisdiction. This has been the interpretation of the courts for many years and I have never read any kind of scholarly article that shows that how the Fourteenth Amendment is being interpreted today is incompatible with the intent of its drafters. Benicar has suggested that the drafters would be appalled with how their Amendment is being interpreted today, but I have simply never read anything to suggest this.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:01 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,276,533 times
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Those are some very convincing arguments, presented clearly and convincingly. I'd be very interested in hearing the rebuttal you get...(if you do, that is)...
Are you suggesting that I won't respond? This is pretty rude considering that I am one of the only forumers in what you guys would call "my camp" who puts up with accusations of alterior motive, ethnic allegiance, etc. while maintaining my cool and responding with logical, non-emotional/symbolic posts. I have spent a long time responding to this thread and am quite disheartened with some of the off-topic, insulting responses that I have gotten.

Last edited by Marlin331; 08-24-2008 at 09:13 PM..
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:17 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,711,852 times
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I'm thankful that we live in one of the only countries in the First World that recognizes children born here as Americans. I may admire many aspects of French/Spanish/Italian society, but that they don't give citizenship automatically to all children born in those countries is certainly NOT one of them. Why would I not be thankful that our country refuses to allow children who have spent 100% of their lives here to be alienated as non-citizens? Birthright citizenship is one thing that - in my opinion - our country does RIGHT (unlike constructing our built environment! But that shall be left to the overpopulation thread) I'm not hiding any "cards" behind my back either; they are all on the table.
Have you ever given any thought as to why the French, Spanish and Italians don't allow birthright citizenship? The citizens of France, Spain and Italy are educated people. Why do you think they decided to put a stop to birthright citizenship?
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
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Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Have you ever given any thought as to why the French, Spanish and Italians don't allow birthright citizenship? The citizens of France, Spain and Italy are educated people. Why do you think they decided to put a stop to birthright citizenship?
Ireland also cancelled birthright citizenship very recently due to its 'immigrant' problem.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:29 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Are you suggesting that I won't respond? This is pretty rude considering that I am one of the only forumers in what you guys would call "my camp" who puts up with accusations of alterior motive, ethnic allegiance, etc. while maintaining my cool and responding with logical, non-emotional/symbolic posts. I have spent a long time responding to this thread and am quite disheartened with some of the off-topic, insulting responses that I have gotten.
Not wanting to insult you...however this whole topic (that of 'birthright citizenship) does seem like one of those cases that 'pushes the envelope' of common sense, and where the 'spirit of the law' gets second-billing to the 'letter of the law'. It's a good illustration to me why every 'civilian', if he deals much at all with "lawyer types", sooner or later comes to hate the whole profession....It's a cold-blooded example of how 'common sense' gets hijacked by legal maneuvering and those who 'legislate from the bench', and I still find it unclear why you seem so personally caught up in defending this 'fine point', since your normal stance seems so much more 'rational' to me.

Again, no insult intended...but my post was meant to show my admiration for the 'poster's' points, and I couldn't imagine any 'reasonable' rebuttal to that. I still can't. Birthright citizenship is an OBVIOUS taking advantage of a long-ago legal 'loophole', and its absurdity is now pretty well recognized in MOST of the modern world. It seems to me that you go WAY out of your way to make an exception for it...and that's not your normal "M.O."..
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:29 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,276,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Have you ever given any thought as to why the French, Spanish and Italians don't allow birthright citizenship? The citizens of France, Spain and Italy are educated people. Why do you think they decided to put a stop to birthright citizenship?
I have lived in Spain and know why firsthand. I disagree with their reasoning and have articulated on this forum the reason why I believe that we should maintain birthright citizenship. I have asked myself all of these questions and yet I still disagree with you.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:35 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,711,852 times
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I have lived in Spain and know why firsthand. I disagree with their reasoning and have articulated on this forum the reason why I believe that we should maintain birthright citizenship. I have asked myself all of these questions and yet I still disagree with you.
I haven't lived in Spain. Why did the people of Spain put a stop to it? What happened to cause them to rethink their stance on birthright citizenship?
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:40 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,276,533 times
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Not wanting to insult you...however this whole topic (that of 'birthright citizenship) does seem like one of those cases that 'pushes the envelope' of common sense, and where the 'spirit of the law' gets second-billing to the 'letter of the law'. It's a good illustration to me why every 'civilian', if he deals much at all with "lawyer types", sooner or later comes to hate the whole profession....It's a cold-blooded example of how 'common sense' gets hijacked by legal maneuvering and those who 'legislate from the bench', and I still find it unclear why you seem so personally caught up in defending this 'fine point', since your normal stance seems so much more 'rational' to me.

Again, no insult intended...but my post was meant to show my admiration for the 'poster's' points, and I couldn't imagine any 'reasonable' rebuttal to that. I still can't. Birthright citizenship is an OBVIOUS taking advantage of a long-ago legal 'loophole', and its absurdity is now pretty well recognized in MOST of the modern world. It seems to me that you go WAY out of your way to make an exception for it...and that's not your normal "M.O."..
I am shocked that you are suggesting that my stance on this is irrational. Not only do I interpret the Fourteenth Amendment to mean that the children of illegal immigrants are citizens of this country; lawmakers and the courts do as well. After having spent hours today discussing this (with passion because I strongly support birthright citizenship AND am a law student) I feel snubbed that my arguments have been deemed to be left-field, irrational, and "push[ing] the envelope of common sense." If there is any moment in which I have considered stopping my contribution to this forum, it is now. If after 1,000 posts (I hit that mark today, if anyone noticed) people are still accusing me of having alterior motives, being anti-American, and having an ethnic agenda, why should I even waste my time on here anymore?
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:47 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I am shocked that you are suggesting that my stance on this is irrational. Not only do I interpret the Fourteenth Amendment to mean that the children of illegal immigrants are citizens of this country; lawmakers and the courts do as well. After having spent hours today discussing this (with passion because I strongly support birthright citizenship AND am a law student) I feel snubbed that my arguments have been deemed to be left-field, irrational, and "push[ing] the envelope of common sense." If there is any moment in which I have considered stopping my contribution to this forum, it is now. If after 1,000 posts (I hit that mark today, if anyone noticed) people are still accusing me of having alterior motives, being anti-American, and having an ethnic agenda, why should I even waste my time on here anymore?
I think that's "ulterior" motives..but what the 'hey'? Look, I've enjoyed your posts. This is just a forum..OK? If you truly feel that strongly about this one area of law, I'll just avoid bringing it up from now on.

I DO think you have an 'issue' with birthright citizenship, for reasons known only to you..and that's OK. Most of us have things we can't discuss calmly.

At any rate, please don't leave the forum on this one issue. Let's discuss something else..OK? We NEED literate people here....STAY !!

PS ..sorry for 'beating up' on the Legal profession, but I'm bitter. I'm still paying off massive legal bills from a VERY nasty lawsuit, in which the 'other side's' case was obviously full of holes from the beginning..and BOTH attorneys admitted this!...Yet the other side 'pressed ahead', trying to win by simply running up my legal bill until I 'folded'. I almost did.

Now, I've won my case and cleared my name..and it only cost me two years income to 'get here'..which is essentially 'where I was' 2 years ago.

Needless to say, I now hate my attorney, and he hates me...and he PREDICTED this at the outset, telling me that an old 'lawyer' saying is "No Attorney-Client relationship survives trial" Funny? Maybe. But paying 2 full years wages to defend myself from spurious nonsense left bad taste in my mouth. Sorry if I seem to have little respect for the "bar" just now. Perhaps I'll mellow out when I 'pay him off' in a few years.

Last edited by macmeal; 08-24-2008 at 09:57 PM..
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Old 08-24-2008, 10:18 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,276,533 times
Reputation: 1675
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I think that's "ulterior" motives..but what the 'hey'? Look, I've enjoyed your posts. This is just a forum..OK? If you truly feel that strongly about this one area of law, I'll just avoid bringing it up from now on.

I DO think you have an 'issue' with birthright citizenship, for reasons known only to you..and that's OK. Most of us have things we can't discuss calmly.

At any rate, please don't leave the forum on this one issue. Let's discuss something else..OK? We NEED literate people here....STAY !!
I'd like to start by saying that I have no particular problem with you and that you have normally given me very fair responses on this forum. However, I feel insulted that not only you, but others - Benicar, JDubsMom, to name a feel - suspect that I have a hidden agenda that I have not yet revealed. It's not a good feeling when you sense that people are constantly rolling their eyes at you, and that's how I have felt lately on this forum. It also doesn't sit well with me that you suggest that I cannot discuss this calmly when I have a staunch history on this forum of being reasonable, logical, non-emotional, and non-insulting, even to people who insult me and present inaccurate characterizations of me either for laughs or to give the people who disagree with me false ammunition.

I have decided to stop participating in the immigration forum and it is not over this issue alone; it is because I feel like many of you dismiss me, roll your eyes at me, think of me as immature, and do not see me as one of your equals due to that my points of view are so drastically different from your own. It's disheartening that many times on this forum some of you have endorsed poorly-written and borderline hateful posts and then in your next post have written me off even after I have presented a well-thought and logical rebuttal. I have no problem with the fact that 90% of you (even many people who are "pro-illegal" !) disagree with me; I have a problem that some of you have to take my posts with a grain of salt because you suspect that I have ulterior motives and a "pro-illegal" ethnic agenda. After more than 1,000 posts I am not so sure that I can convince some of you to stop questioning my motives, start taking my posts for what they are (good, logical debate), and stop slinging insults at me for disagreeing with you. I have extended this courtesy to all of you and really expected you all to extend it to me as well.

I used to pride myself in this forum on not getting emotional, but if you want some emotion, here it is, in my last post on this forum. I sincerely hope that either the hostile and mistrusting tone on this forum changes or that you get some new forumers who are up for some good-natured, logical debate instead of the current "gang up and call the opposition an idiot" method that unfortunately has seemed to prevail here as of late. If any of you want to ask me any specific, non-loaded questions about immigration, please feel free to private message me. I will continue to participate in the New York and Miami forums; I just have decided that it is best that I stop contributing to the immigration forum. I wish you all best of luck in your personal, professional, and academic pursuits and like many of you I sincerely hope for comprehensive immigration reform.

Cris P
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