U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-31-2008, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
I was eluding to this


My point was that I think everyone wants this guest worker thing mostly as something to dim the anger and frustration we have with this horde of people sucking off Social Services. I really doubt it would change how many are cheating the system only deepening the quagmire.

I really don't care who is here so long as they are self sustaining and don't rob Social Services. Without this thievery of Social Services I'm willing to bet it would be a mass migration South.
The 'odds' are definitely in your favor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-05-2008, 01:23 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,940,037 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
It is a standard legal principle that one cannot benefit or profit from an illegal act.
That legal principle applies to illegal acts that are characterized as malum in se. An administrative violation, by contrast, is a malum prohibitum and thus does not trigger this principle. Additionally, the principle applies only to economic benefits, not emotional ones, such as being with one's family in one's home.

I also don't think that most people here are fit to cast stones, anyway. It amazes me how many Americans who cry about illegal immigrants flaunting our laws have no qualms whatsoever about profiting from illegal immigration. Ever had a cheap bowl of pho? If so, there is a 99% chance you've profited from illegal immigration -- and don't tell me you don't know those places hire illegal aliens and others off the books. Just disgorge your profit with interest and move to Vietnam. Same with cheap construction companies (even licensed ones) and $10 manicures, to scratch the surface If we follow these lofty principles, not only illegal aliens per se --2/3 of the American citizens will have to be deported along with them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2008, 01:36 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,801 posts, read 30,052,880 times
Reputation: 17694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
That legal principle applies to illegal acts that are characterized as malum in se. An administrative violation, by contrast, is a malum prohibitum and thus does not trigger this principle. Additionally, the principle applies only to economic benefits, not emotional ones, such as being with one's family in one's home.

I also don't think that most people here are fit to cast stones, anyway. It amazes me how many Americans who cry about illegal immigrants flaunting our laws have no qualms whatsoever about profiting from illegal immigration. Ever had a cheap bowl of pho? If so, there is a 99% chance you've profited from illegal immigration -- and don't tell me you don't know those places hire illegal aliens and others off the books. Just disgorge your profit with interest and move to Vietnam. Same with cheap construction companies (even licensed ones) and $10 manicures, to scratch the surface If we follow these lofty principles, not only illegal aliens per se --2/3 of the American citizens will have to be deported along with them.
Oh what a picture you conjure! Since these costs are unavailable to the open market I need to bring up the other hidden expenses on your imaginary spread sheet. These are the costs of social services like education, healthcare and public assistance. Add in other hidden expenses from people driving without a license, heck lets throw in the plight of people being displaced by illegal labor driving down wages and this picture changes dramitically.

I can see where it would be much easier for someone who was displaced by an Illegal Alien to purchase food if they actually had that job back. It would also matter far less if food prices went up as the price of wages for that job given back to the AMERICAN would rise to cover it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2008, 02:06 PM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,940,037 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Oh what a picture you conjure! Since these costs are unavailable to the open market I need to bring up the other hidden expenses on your imaginary spread sheet. These are the costs of social services like education, healthcare and public assistance. Add in other hidden expenses from people driving without a license, heck lets throw in the plight of people being displaced by illegal labor driving down wages and this picture changes dramitically.
We are talking about the simple matter of profiting from an illegal act. If you are saying that someone who profits from an illegal act must be fined/jailed/deported, then this principle should be applied in absolutely every case, without exception. An illegal alien profiting by getting an education should be punished, but anyone who buys a product of an illegal alien's labor should also be punished. Being a citizen does not mean you are above the law. One illegal act does not redeem another, and you can't demand justice with respect to one while crying for mercy as to the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
I can see where it would be much easier for someone who was displaced by an Illegal Alien to purchase food if they actually had that job back. It would also matter far less if food prices went up as the price of wages for that job given back to the AMERICAN would rise to cover it.
Food? I don't think starvation is a serious problem for American citizens. Obesity, on the other hand ... In any event, as a practical matter, in the absence of illegal aliens, many of those jobs would simply be eliminated in the US; for it would still be much cheaper to outsource than to put up with the unions. Many other jobs would be eliminated because citizen wages would make certain products and services considerably more expensive and thus drastically reduce demand. And most products made cheap by illegal labor are luxuries, anyway. Getting a new kitchen just because it's newer and prettier, adding a deck to the house, getting a manicure, going out to a restaurant -- none of these are essential; they are all optional and not necessary to survival or basic comfort. Therefore, if we are to punish people for profiting from illegal acts, those who get these goods and services at a discount thanks to illegal labor must accordingly be punished.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2008, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
That legal principle applies to illegal acts that are characterized as malum in se. An administrative violation, by contrast, is a malum prohibitum and thus does not trigger this principle. Additionally, the principle applies only to economic benefits, not emotional ones, such as being with one's family in one's home.

I also don't think that most people here are fit to cast stones, anyway. It amazes me how many Americans who cry about illegal immigrants flaunting our laws have no qualms whatsoever about profiting from illegal immigration. Ever had a cheap bowl of pho? If so, there is a 99% chance you've profited from illegal immigration -- and don't tell me you don't know those places hire illegal aliens and others off the books. Just disgorge your profit with interest and move to Vietnam. Same with cheap construction companies (even licensed ones) and $10 manicures, to scratch the surface If we follow these lofty principles, not only illegal aliens per se --2/3 of the American citizens will have to be deported along with them.
Irrevelant:

If I knowingly hired an illegal immigrant; my butt would be in the sling if caught (and rightly so). Now, if my employer did so and I was unaware of it------despite my possible profit.........the onus would not be on me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2008, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,887,954 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
That legal principle applies to illegal acts that are characterized as malum in se. An administrative violation, by contrast, is a malum prohibitum and thus does not trigger this principle. Additionally, the principle applies only to economic benefits, not emotional ones, such as being with one's family in one's home.

I also don't think that most people here are fit to cast stones, anyway. It amazes me how many Americans who cry about illegal immigrants flaunting our laws have no qualms whatsoever about profiting from illegal immigration. Ever had a cheap bowl of pho? If so, there is a 99% chance you've profited from illegal immigration -- and don't tell me you don't know those places hire illegal aliens and others off the books. Just disgorge your profit with interest and move to Vietnam. Same with cheap construction companies (even licensed ones) and $10 manicures, to scratch the surface If we follow these lofty principles, not only illegal aliens per se --2/3 of the American citizens will have to be deported along with them.
Unfortunately most company's who use illegals do not pass on the savings to their consumers. They pocket the savings...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2008, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,174,996 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
We are talking about the simple matter of profiting from an illegal act. If you are saying that someone who profits from an illegal act must be fined/jailed/deported, then this principle should be applied in absolutely every case, without exception. An illegal alien profiting by getting an education should be punished, but anyone who buys a product of an illegal alien's labor should also be punished. Being a citizen does not mean you are above the law. One illegal act does not redeem another, and you can't demand justice with respect to one while crying for mercy as to the other.



Food? I don't think starvation is a serious problem for American citizens. Obesity, on the other hand ... In any event, as a practical matter, in the absence of illegal aliens, many of those jobs would simply be eliminated in the US; for it would still be much cheaper to outsource than to put up with the unions. Many other jobs would be eliminated because citizen wages would make certain products and services considerably more expensive and thus drastically reduce demand. And most products made cheap by illegal labor are luxuries, anyway. Getting a new kitchen just because it's newer and prettier, adding a deck to the house, getting a manicure, going out to a restaurant -- none of these are essential; they are all optional and not necessary to survival or basic comfort. Therefore, if we are to punish people for profiting from illegal acts, those who get these goods and services at a discount thanks to illegal labor must accordingly be punished.
I'm all good with that. Fine the jackazzes who hire the day laborers, fine the companies that hire illegals, fine the citizens who KNOWINGLY avail themselves of illegal alien services. If you can't hire a legal worker, offer more $$$ until you CAN!

I wouldn't have to worry about getting fined. I do my own yard work, wash my own car and refuse to eat out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2008, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,887,954 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPinestra View Post
I'm all good with that. Fine the jackazzes who hire the day laborers, fine the companies that hire illegals, fine the citizens who KNOWINGLY avail themselves of illegal alien services. If you can't hire a legal worker, offer more $$$ until you CAN!

I wouldn't have to worry about getting fined. I do my own yard work, wash my own car and refuse to eat out.
I am with you and I have acres of yard to maintain.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2008, 06:17 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,801 posts, read 30,052,880 times
Reputation: 17694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post

Food? In any event, as a practical matter, in the absence of illegal aliens, many of those jobs would simply be eliminated in the US; for it would still be much cheaper to outsource than to put up with the unions. Many other jobs would be eliminated because citizen wages would make certain products and services considerably more expensive and thus drastically reduce demand. And most products made cheap by illegal labor are luxuries, anyway. Getting a new kitchen just because it's newer and prettier, adding a deck to the house, getting a manicure, going out to a restaurant -- none of these are essential; they are all optional and not necessary to survival or basic comfort. Therefore, if we are to punish people for profiting from illegal acts, those who get these goods and services at a discount thanks to illegal labor must accordingly be punished.
First, how do you outsource someone slinging a hammer on your roof? How do you outsource a Company that is hands on like those who would install fixtures in your kitchen? These arenas would never disappear.

So the price of a cheap burger goes up. The price of produce goes up. Fine! The wages of jobs would still go up in many sectors as there would be no slave labor to fill it. I don't like Unions as I believe their usefulness has long since been used up. Without competition from slave labor Unions aren't really necessary.

I can see your points but in my opinion they are extreme. Less than twenty years ago we got along just fine without this horde.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2008, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
First, how do you outsource someone slinging a hammer on your roof? How do you outsource a Company that is hands on like those who would install fixtures in your kitchen? These arenas would never disappear.

So the price of a cheap burger goes up. The price of produce goes up. Fine! The wages of jobs would still go up in many sectors as there would be no slave labor to fill it. I don't like Unions as I believe their usefulness has long since been used up. Without competition from slave labor Unions aren't really necessary.

I can see your points but in my opinion they are extreme. Less than twenty years ago we got along just fine without this horde.
As you stated-----------especially your statement that I bolded
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top