U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-03-2008, 09:20 PM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,550 times
Reputation: 76

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPinestra View Post
Here's some interesting info on LA...

history - Los Angeles County (http://lacounty.info/history.htm - broken link)

It seems that the VAST majority of human inhabitants prior to 1822 was the Gabrielino Indians.

Originally Posted by Californio
I was actually referring to the Los Angeles area. I know everything you just said. Yes there were indians in the area, and the Spanish colonized the area with their missions and such.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-03-2008, 10:02 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,722,338 times
Reputation: 22159
It's all going to come down to "Jobs for the American People".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-03-2008, 10:16 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,690,528 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Californio View Post
I was actually referring to the Los Angeles area. I know everything you just said. Yes there were indians in the area, and the Spanish colonized the area with their missions and such.
Interesting. Because British and French Europeans settled the rest of the U.S., their progeny are accused of the systematic elimination of the Native Americans as well as stealing the continent. Yet the Spanish, whose atrocities against California's native population rivals their British and French counterparts for barbarity, merely "colonize" an area.

Interesting discrepancies....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-03-2008, 10:23 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,996,951 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Interesting. Because British and French Europeans settled the rest of the U.S., their progeny are accused of the systematic elimination of the Native Americans as well as stealing the continent. Yet the Spanish, whose atrocities against California's native population rivals their British and French counterparts for barbarity, merely "colonize" an area.

Interesting discrepancies....
What are you talking about? When did anyone defend the Spanish against the British or French?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-03-2008, 10:28 PM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,550 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Interesting. Because British and French Europeans settled the rest of the U.S., their progeny are accused of the systematic elimination of the Native Americans as well as stealing the continent. Yet the Spanish, whose atrocities against California's native population rivals their British and French counterparts for barbarity, merely "colonize" an area.

Interesting discrepancies....
Again, I was not speaking on the "rest of the U.S". I was referring to Los Angeles.

I know it might be considered Un-Mexican to talk highly about the Spanish but the truth is, unlike the English settlers, they treated them as people. "An Indian shall not be referred to as dog unless dog is his name". The Spanish taught them Spanish, taught them about Christianity (of course by extreme measures sometimes), opened schools, and of course colonize all of Mexico. Atrocities did happen-- I'm not negating that fact. There was rape, murder, slavery e.t.c
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-03-2008, 10:29 PM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,550 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
What are you talking about? When did anyone defend the Spanish against the British or French?
If even that, it was quite the contrary. All of Europe disliked the Spanish and dehumanized them. As goes La Leyenda Negra or "The Black legend".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-03-2008, 10:38 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,996,951 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Californio View Post
Again, I was not speaking on the "rest of the U.S". I was referring to Los Angeles.

I know it might be considered Un-Mexican to talk highly about the Spanish but the truth is, unlike the English settlers, they treated them as people. "An Indian shall not be referred to as dog unless dog is his name". The Spanish taught them Spanish, taught them about Christianity (of course by extreme measures sometimes), opened schools, and of course colonize all of Mexico. Atrocities did happen-- I'm not negating that fact. There was rape, murder, slavery e.t.c
I don't think any European settlers or conquistadors were too good to the natives.
The Spanish was under a lot of control by the Catholic church which kind of checked the colonists on whatever they were doing.

The British were more concerned with race, which is why you didn't see nearly as much crossing of bloodlines.
The English colonists main goal was to push the Indians out and/or eradicate them.

The Spaniards were under instruction to convert, and destroy any native culture. The Church decided that the natives had a soul, and should be treated as men, but of course they found ways around it. The Church ordered them to not use slavery, they developed the Hacienda system. etc.



I think its funny that Kele claims we are defending Spaniards(because they are Hispanic?).

All the European colonists were pretty bad to the natives. Except for probably the French.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-03-2008, 10:45 PM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,550 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
I don't think any European settlers or conquistadors were too good to the natives.
The Spanish was under a lot of control by the Catholic church which kind of checked the colonists on whatever they were doing.

Of course they weren't too good, but historically speaking, the Spanish were way better about the situation than the English. But don't think the Spanish were also quick NOT to penalize their soldiers for wrong doing. There have been several accounts of Columbus would penalize his soldiers by cutting off their ears and parts of their noses.


The British were more concerned with race, which is why you didn't see nearly as much crossing of bloodlines.
The English colonists main goal was to push the Indians out and/or eradicate them.

The English didn't mix with them because they didn't see them as "Human beings". They treated them much like dogs.

The Spaniards were under instruction to convert, and destroy any native culture. Of course they found ways around it. The Church ordered them to not use slavery, they developed the Hacienda system.

Yes there was their original mission. But much after the Spanish had already settled people looking to make names for themselves settled in Mexico. And their reasons for being there were far different than that of the Spanish there for religious reasons. Yet even though they were instructed not to use slaves, slavery was still used. The Chichimecas come to mind.


I think its funny that Kele claims we are defending Spaniards(because they are Hispanic?).

All the European colonists were pretty bad to the natives. Except for probably the French.
.........................
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-03-2008, 11:03 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,996,951 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Californio View Post
.........................

The Hacienda system, and other things they developed were those "legal" forms of slavery that kept the Church at bay.

I guess dropping the native population of Mexico from 25 million to 1 million in less than a century can be seen as kinda being better about the situation.

The way I see it, thats because the British and Spanish came to the new world for different reasons.

The British were settling. They were making a new home, so they had no use for the natives. They wiped them out by killing them, driving them out, and intentionally giving them smallpox and other diseases.

The Spanish came to conquer. A colony to provide for Spain.They didn't see the Indians as in there way. They saw them as a whole bunch of free labor. So they killed them and raped them into submission. For what they were doing, it wouldn't have really benefitted them to wipe them out.

As conquistadors, they didnt come as families. So when the church decided the natives were human, the Spaniards were able to mate.


I don't think it was too warm and fuzzy, because for a long time after, you still had the Criollos and Peninsulares in power. With the Indians, Mestizos, and African slaves at the bottom of the food chain.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-03-2008, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,174,996 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Californio View Post
Of course they weren't too good, but historically speaking, the Spanish were way better about the situation than the English. But don't think the Spanish were also quick NOT to penalize their soldiers for wrong doing. There have been several accounts of Columbus would penalize his soldiers by cutting off their ears and parts of their noses.
I thought Columbus was Portuguese...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top