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Old 09-04-2008, 12:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
The Hacienda system, and other things they developed were those "legal" forms of slavery that kept the Church at bay.

I guess dropping the native population of Mexico from 25 million to 1 million in less than a century can be seen as kinda being better about the situation.

The way I see it, thats because the British and Spanish came to the new world for different reasons.

The British were settling. They were making a new home, so they had no use for the natives. They wiped them out by killing them, driving them out, and intentionally giving them smallpox and other diseases.

The Spanish came to conquer. A colony to provide for Spain.They didn't see the Indians as in there way. They saw them as a whole bunch of free labor. So they killed them and raped them into submission. For what they were doing, it wouldn't have really benefitted them to wipe them out.

As conquistadors, they didnt come as families. So when the church decided the natives were human, the Spaniards were able to mate.


I don't think it was too warm and fuzzy, because for a long time after, you still had the Criollos and Peninsulares in power. With the Indians, Mestizos, and African slaves at the bottom of the food chain.
Well before you have canonized all the Spaniards, let's not forget the history of Peru. Someone called Pizarro come to mind?
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:13 AM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Well before you have canonized all the Spaniards, let's not forget the history of Peru. Someone called Pizarro come to mind?
Are you serious? Did you even read what I wrote?
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:14 AM
 
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Nor should we forget Mexicans like Don Juan de Onate who cut the feet off Indians to subdue them.

Part of the problem with the Indians and the French and the British is that the French and the British were going at it between themselves, and each had their allied Indians. The British were nice to their own Indian allies but quite bad to the French's Indian allies and vice versa. The Indians who were fighting with the French or with the British also had their long-time feuds with one another.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:16 AM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Nor should we forget Mexicans like Don Juan de Onate who cut the feet off Indians to subdue them.

Part of the problem with the Indians and the French and the British is that the French and the British were going at it between themselves, and each had their allied Indians. The British were nice to their own Indian allies but quite bad to the French's Indian allies and vice versa. The Indians who were fighting with the French or with the British also had their long-time feuds with one another.
Why are you guys assuming I'm defending the Spanish?
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:16 AM
 
1,417 posts, read 855,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
The Hacienda system, and other things they developed were those "legal" forms of slavery that kept the Church at bay.

I guess dropping the native population of Mexico from 25 million to 1 million in less than a century can be seen as kinda being better about the situation.

It was the diseases that the Spanish brought that killed off most of the indians.

The way I see it, thats because the British and Spanish came to the new world for different reasons.

Well certainly the main goal why the Spanish came here wasn't to bestow religion upon the indians, Columbus came here by mistake. And Hernan cortes was there for the gold.

The British were settling. They were making a new home, so they had no use for the natives. They wiped them out by killing them, driving them out, and intentionally giving them smallpox and other diseases.

I don't think the Europeans gave any diseases to the Indians "intentionally". The Indians also gave disease to the Europeans but for some reason they had stronger immune systems and didn't die as easily as the indians did.

The Spanish came to conquer. A colony to provide for Spain.They didn't see the Indians as in there way. They saw them as a whole bunch of free labor. So they killed them and raped them into submission. For what they were doing, it wouldn't have really benefitted them to wipe them out.

Yep agreed.

As conquistadors, they didnt come as families. So when the church decided the natives were human, the Spaniards were able to mate.

The only reason some Spanish soldiers brought their families is because some Spanish were taking Indian wives and having children with them. The soldiers were faced with two options. One, bring their wives and family with them or to go back. But of course this didn't happen until later on.


I don't think it was too warm and fuzzy, because for a long time after, you still had the Criollos and Peninsulares in power. With the Indians, Mestizos, and African slaves at the bottom of the food chain.

History is NEVER too warm and fuzzy. Lots of things can happen. How old is our nation? 230 something years old? The jews were kicked out of Spain and they were living there for 700+ years as well as the moors.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Nor should we forget Mexicans like Don Juan de Onate who cut the feet off Indians to subdue them.

Part of the problem with the Indians and the French and the British is that the French and the British were going at it between themselves, and each had their allied Indians. The British were nice to their own Indian allies but quite bad to the French's Indian allies and vice versa. The Indians who were fighting with the French or with the British also had their long-time feuds with one another.
You should go earlier than that. You should go as early as when all the other tribes became compadres with the Spanish and help sub-due the Mexica (aztecs).

The British were bad to the indians period. Yes they traded with each other, but that doesn't mean tensions were still high between one another. The British kicked out anyone who wasn't British no matter what tribe they were from.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:20 AM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
........................................
You dont know where the term "indian giver" comes from?

The British gave the Indians a "gift".
Uncleaned blankets from smallpox patients.

Once they learned the natives were susceptible to European diseases, they used it to their advantage.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:20 AM
 
1,417 posts, read 855,996 times
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Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Why are you guys assuming I'm defending the Spanish?
I'm not assuming your defending the Spanish. . I like to keep a balanced eye, make sure it all matches up. The Mexican attitude towards the Spanish is pretty bad. Mexicans side with the indians, after all, how many statues of Spanish people are there in Mexico? That alone says it all.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:25 AM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
I'm not assuming your defending the Spanish. . I like to keep a balanced eye, make sure it all matches up. The Mexican attitude towards the Spanish is pretty bad. Mexicans side with the indians, after all, how many statues of Spanish people are there in Mexico? That alone says it all.
Not you, malamute and Kele both jumped in randomly accusing of portraying the Spaniards in a more positive light than other European colonists, lol.

As far as Mexicans siding with indians, and honoring them more, youre luck Arizona Bear isn't reading that. He'd be quick to comment on the "white supremacy of Mexico" and the 'brown peoples insecurity, and tendecy to lick the boots of the 'white master''
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:28 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,877,424 times
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Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Why are you guys assuming I'm defending the Spanish?
I don't think it's really possible to say British or Spanish were better than the other. In Peru, the Spaniards hunted Indians down. In Mexico though it was different because the Indians had large impressive cities and an advanced civiliation which the Spaniards admired. The Spaniards didn't conquer Mexico just on their own -- they had plenty of help in some of the Indians who were fed up with the Aztecs.

It was Indians -- such as the Tlaxcalans who guided the Spaniards to Tenochitlan because they figured the Spaniards could defeat their long-time enemies, and the Aztecs were feared because of the human sacrifices they were doing -- not on themselves but other Indians -- Tlaxcalans and others.

You can see how some of the Indians such as the Tlaxcalans might have seen the Spaniards as a lesser evil especially with a religion that outlawed human sacrifice.

I don't think you can really compare because the Spaniards came at a different time in Europe, a post medieval Europe, and by the time the British came, Europeans (British, Spaniards, etc) had evolved, post Enlightenment, Magna Carta and all that. It all left it's mark though on our societies today.
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