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Old 09-08-2008, 11:14 AM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,297 times
Reputation: 488

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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
As I've posted before, you ARE correct in noting that some folks can use phraseology that CAN sound a little uncharitable, and even 'testy'. I'll agree that it doesn't always sound 'nice'.

But you must admit that what we're seeing today is FAIRLY unique. Here we have a situation straight out of a cheap 'adventure novel', in which literally TEN PERCENT of a pretty large country has packed up and moved into the NEIGHBORING country....mostly with no permission, no authorization, and no invitation from most of the 'locals'. And this group of 'trespassers' isn't at all shy, either..in demanding all sorts of rights and concessions, and in playing the 'race card' shamelessly, whether it's appropriate or not. They have succeed in large measure in putting "us" (the American public) on the defensive.

Altogether, I think it's safe to say that this is a pretty unique situation....and what's remarkable to ME, is not the amount of anger and 'hate' we see, but the LACK of it.

Ask yourself this...where else in the world could this occur, and have SMOOTHER results? Off hand, I can't think of any place. So we have some 'unkind remarks'...OK...and your point is?.....

Something to at least consider.
Unkind remarks, sure. Anger, sure. But calling these people 'cowards'? Come on macmeal, you have to see where I'm coming from on this one. It's gone beyond 'uncharitable', 'testy', or 'unkind' remarks. In some cases it's gone beyond decency. I think there's a difference between being angry about the situation and calling these people cowards.

This is a unique situation. It probably wouldn't happen anywhere else in the world with similar results. Why? I can't think of anywhere in the world that has the same economic and social landscape as we have in this situation. We are an economic giant with very little in-house cheap labor - and when I say cheap labor, I mean cheap in comparison to our competitors, which is why outsourcing has become so popular. One of our neighboring countries has a massive number of poor looking for work, and will provide low skilled labor for a low cost. Our government hasn't made any real effort to prevent them from coming over without permission or businesses from hiring them, partly because they see the need for cheap labor (in my opinion). Our community hasn't put anyone in power that will do anything about it. So it's kept going on the way it has for years. Am I looking at this completely wrong?

These people face exploitation and risk being separated from their families and sometimes worse, but they do it because it's the best and most immediate option they have. And yet, you see people calling them cowards and villains and the main reason why our nation will crumble. You see people refer to the violent crime stats, unemployment stats, and other problems we're having and blame it all on illegal immigration. Though I can see how it can attribute to some of these problems, I think that's a little extreme and somewhat unfair. Generalizations can become a bit dangerous.

You're right, the locals haven't invited them here. But our government has, at least in a sense, by not removing the incentive or implementing effective solutions. It is a unique situation. People should be upset that it's been allowed to get this far without proper enforcement. But the level of disgust and hatred directed towards these people amazes me. I haven't seen anywhere near the level of disgust or hatred directed towards our leaders for not taking action, at least not from the masses.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:04 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
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No, Ludachris, you're not COMPLETELY wrong....however, from my point of view you're taking things out of context. You cite our shortage of 'cheap labor'...but how many Americans woulod be personally willing to see THEIR job turned into 'cheap labor'..(which, for many, is essentially what's happened). You cite a seeming lack of 'disgust' in our own leadership...true, but I think you'll see an increase in this soon.

As you've admitted, this whole situation IS rather unique. You seem to concentrate on the average American's 'hate and disgust', and his lack of compassion. I'm asking you ONLY. "in comparison to WHOM ?"....As I've said, what I find remarkable is America's PATIENCE...that after numerous amnesties, etc etc, we're still calling this a 'debate'. I'll bet there are few societies that would debate this as long as we have.

Once again, I admire your compassion, and your thoughful posts. I simply disagree on your point of view.

One thing that you said, I agree with completely.."Generalizations CAN, indeed, become a bit dangerous....ANY generalization, by ANY side". This is good advice to remember.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,892,472 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Unkind remarks, sure. Anger, sure. But calling these people 'cowards'? Come on macmeal, you have to see where I'm coming from on this one. It's gone beyond 'uncharitable', 'testy', or 'unkind' remarks. In some cases it's gone beyond decency. I think there's a difference between being angry about the situation and calling these people cowards.

This is a unique situation. It probably wouldn't happen anywhere else in the world with similar results. Why? I can't think of anywhere in the world that has the same economic and social landscape as we have in this situation. We are an economic giant with very little in-house cheap labor - and when I say cheap labor, I mean cheap in comparison to our competitors, which is why outsourcing has become so popular. One of our neighboring countries has a massive number of poor looking for work, and will provide low skilled labor for a low cost. Our government hasn't made any real effort to prevent them from coming over without permission or businesses from hiring them, partly because they see the need for cheap labor (in my opinion). Our community hasn't put anyone in power that will do anything about it. So it's kept going on the way it has for years. Am I looking at this completely wrong?

These people face exploitation and risk being separated from their families and sometimes worse, but they do it because it's the best and most immediate option they have. And yet, you see people calling them cowards and villains and the main reason why our nation will crumble. You see people refer to the violent crime stats, unemployment stats, and other problems we're having and blame it all on illegal immigration. Though I can see how it can attribute to some of these problems, I think that's a little extreme and somewhat unfair. Generalizations can become a bit dangerous.

You're right, the locals haven't invited them here. But our government has, at least in a sense, by not removing the incentive or implementing effective solutions. It is a unique situation. People should be upset that it's been allowed to get this far without proper enforcement. But the level of disgust and hatred directed towards these people amazes me. I haven't seen anywhere near the level of disgust or hatred directed towards our leaders for not taking action, at least not from the masses.
LOL No No and yet no again.
These people have made the choice to face exploitation. You do that when you choose to ignore a nations laws.
Our gov hasn't implemented stronger security because the the pro-illegals cry a river every time its mentioned. Politicians fear the hispanic vote. Worse still they fear being called a racist no matter how untrue or unfounded.
No Not all crime or even most crime can be attributed to illegals. I haven't heard anyone make that claim. But every crime committed by an illegal is a crime that could have been prevented through perish the thought controling immigration.
Invited them here? How? Weak border security = an invitation?
Because some greedy employers prefer illegal labor? Thats not an invitation. Thats taking advantage of a loophole. I agree we should pound greedy employers with max fines. We should pound greedy landlords with max fines. We should also pound anyone who provides sanctuary.
To include schools who do not report obvious illegals. My kids needed a birth certificate and SSN to be enrolled not to mention shot records.
Doctors who do not report illegals.
City and state law enforcement who do not cooperate with ICE.
Its not that I hate illegals. Because I need to know someone in order to like or dislike them. I hate what they are doing.
These are not honest hard working people. Each and everyone of them is in fact a criminal.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:12 PM
 
3,859 posts, read 9,176,199 times
Reputation: 2728
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
LOL No No and yet no again.
These people have made the choice to face exploitation. You do that when you choose to ignore a nations laws.
Our gov hasn't implemented stronger security because the the pro-illegals cry a river every time its mentioned. Politicians fear the hispanic vote. Worse still they fear being called a racist no matter how untrue or unfounded.
No Not all crime or even most crime can be attributed to illegals. I haven't heard anyone make that claim. But every crime committed by an illegal is a crime that could have been prevented through perish the thought controling immigration.
Invited them here? How? Weak border security = an invitation?
Because some greedy employers prefer illegal labor? Thats not an invitation. Thats taking advantage of a loophole. I agree we should pound greedy employers with max fines. We should pound greedy landlords with max fines. We should also pound anyone who provides sanctuary.
To include schools who do not report obvious illegals. My kids needed a birth certificate and SSN to be enrolled not to mention shot records.
Doctors who do not report illegals.
City and state law enforcement who do not cooperate with ICE.
Its not that I hate illegals. Because I need to know someone in order to like or dislike them. I hate what they are doing.
These are not honest hard working people. Each and everyone of them is in fact a criminal.


I agree.
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:21 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,297 times
Reputation: 488
You guys win... they're all cowards and villains and deserve not an ounce of compassion whatsoever. They deserve to rot in hell - those disgusting, evil, filthy excuse for human beings. They only come here to rob us of everything we have! Round them dirt bags up and get 'em outta here now! And shoot 'em down if they try to get back in, damned vermin! When they're gone, gas prices will go down, the housing crisis will recover, health care will be affordable and my acid reflux will magically go away (since I suppose fewer foods will have jalapenos in them).

There, now I fit in here much better... LOL
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:36 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
You guys win... they're all cowards and villains and deserve not an ounce of compassion whatsoever. They deserve to rot in hell - those disgusting, evil, filthy excuse for human beings. They only come here to rob us of everything we have! Round them dirt bags up and get 'em outta here now! And shoot 'em down if they try to get back in, damned vermin! When they're gone, gas prices will go down, the housing crisis will recover, health care will be affordable and my acid reflux will magically go away (since I suppose fewer foods will have jalapenos in them).

There, now I fit in here much better... LOL
Sarcasm of the strongest caliber.....a little rough around the edges, but you show promise.

No they don't "deserve to rot in hell", and many are likeable people in their own right. They're simply in violation of a law....and today that has mushroomed into a huge and significant problem, and needs to be addressed. It once caused no harm...but now it does. MANY things that were OK in past years, have become NOT OK today. Times change, society changes, and what once 'worked' doesn't always continue to. Illegal immigration is one example..there are many others.

I honestly don't 'get it', I guess. I live my entire daily LIFE surrounded by MOSTLY Mestizos and Indians....some of whom have illegal ancestors, and many who themselves came illegally as infants. I've known and worked with recently-arrived illegals, too...some years in the past.

Maybe I'm too 'close' to the everyday reality to see what all the 'emotion' is about. I simply can NOT understand why being opposed to illegal immigration makes one 'opposed to Hispanics'. It makes absolutely NO sense. It's as if one 'white American' were to say to another. "If you don't like BURGLARS, (most of whom are White Americans), it means you don't like white Americans".

...It DOES? How so? Because most burglars are non-violent petty criminals, who seldom 'hurt' people, they're really not "bad"? And because most of them are White, then to oppose them is an act of 'racism'? Since when?

I can dislike burglars and want them 'put out of business', yet still see them as 'people'. Ditto for illegals...they're people, but I don't like what they're doing..I want it stopped, yet I still don't "hate Hispanics". I don't even hate illegals...I simply hate what they're doing.

If it's any consolation, there are plenty of non-Hispanics too, who are doing various 'things' to our society that I HATE....yet I can't say I hate the 'offenders'..I hate what they're doing.
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:49 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,297 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Sarcasm of the strongest caliber.....a little rough around the edges, but you show promise.

No they don't "deserve to rot in hell", and many are likeable people in their own right. They're simply in violation of a law....and today that has mushroomed into a huge and significant problem, and needs to be addressed. It once caused no harm...but now it does. MANY things that were OK in past years, have become NOT OK today. Times change, society changes, and what once 'worked' doesn't always continue to. Illegal immigration is one example..there are many others.

I honestly don't 'get it', I guess. I live my entire daily LIFE surrounded by MOSTLY Mestizos and Indians....some of whom have illegal ancestors, and many who themselves came illegally as infants. I've known and worked with recently-arrived illegals, too...some years in the past.

Maybe I'm too 'close' to the everyday reality to see what all the 'emotion' is about. I simply can NOT understand why being opposed to illegal immigration makes one 'opposed to Hispanics'. It makes absolutely NO sense. It's as if one 'white American' were to say to another. "If you don't like BURGLARS, (most of whom are White Americans), it means you don't like white Americans".

...It DOES? How so? Because most burglars are non-violent petty criminals, who seldom 'hurt' people, they're really not "bad"? And because most of them are White, then to oppose them is an act of 'racism'? Since when?

I can dislike burglars and want them 'put out of business', yet still see them as 'people'. Ditto for illegals...they're people, but I don't like what they're doing..I want it stopped, yet I still don't "hate Hispanics". I don't even hate illegals...I simply hate what they're doing.

If it's any consolation, there are plenty of non-Hispanics too, who are doing various 'things' to our society that I HATE....yet I can't say I hate the 'offenders'..I hate what they're doing.
That was the intent....

Macmeal, my sarcasm was not directed towards you. We've already come to terms on our debates and you've always had good points without referring to the group as cowards, villains, or any other term that suggests they have no dignity. I have nothing but respect for your stance, whether we agree or not. You've at least acknowledged the human side of it. I wish others would argue it the way you do.

I just had to make light of it so that I could let it go and not be so bothered by some peoples' attitudes.
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:00 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
This is a unique situation. It probably wouldn't happen anywhere else in the world with similar results. Why? I can't think of anywhere in the world that has the same economic and social landscape as we have in this situation. We are an economic giant with very little in-house cheap labor - and when I say cheap labor, I mean cheap in comparison to our competitors, which is why outsourcing has become so popular. One of our neighboring countries has a massive number of poor looking for work, and will provide low skilled labor for a low cost. Our government hasn't made any real effort to prevent them from coming over without permission or businesses from hiring them, partly because they see the need for cheap labor (in my opinion). Our community hasn't put anyone in power that will do anything about it. So it's kept going on the way it has for years. Am I looking at this completely wrong?
. .
One more 'comment' here. There's much to think about in your above paragraph. Yes, the problem HAS been neglected..and yes, as you say, we've been unable to put anyone in high office who will sincerely address the issue.

My guess would be that we as Americans like to see ourselves as compassionate. We WANT to think the problem can be handled in a 'gentlemanly' manner, and we balk at the thought that we need a hard-core 'tough guy' in office to PUSH what we would LIKE to see handled in a 'nice' way. In short, we Americans are perhaps a little idealistic, and we hate the idea of keeping people OUT of our country by force. We WANT them to keep THEMSELVES out, because that's our law. In our naivete, we see everyone else as being 'like us'..(re: multiculturalism)...we think "I obey the laws of countries that I visit...why can't they return the favor?"

In short, Ludachris, in all honesty, I think that Americans sincerely WANT to be the "good guys", and are reluctant to take such harsh measures unless they're REALLY MAD. The time may be approaching when we become "really mad", when the 'good guy' image wears thin....and what you're seeing MAY be a step in this direction. I HOPE not, but all compassion and charity eventually gets 'old' when the compassion and charity extended seem to make no improvement. And it's VERY hard for many of us to see how our sacrifices in accomodating millions of illegals have 'improved' anyone's life.

Anyway, that's my uneducated guess...

Last edited by macmeal; 09-08-2008 at 05:12 PM..
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:10 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
That was the intent....

Macmeal, my sarcasm was not directed towards you. We've already come to terms on our debates and you've always had good points without referring to the group as cowards, villains, or any other term that suggests they have no dignity. I have nothing but respect for your stance, whether we agree or not. You've at least acknowledged the human side of it. I wish others would argue it the way you do.

I just had to make light of it so that I could let it go and not be so bothered by some peoples' attitudes.
Yes, "cowards" and 'villians" does sound harsh..but this is a highly-charged 'hot button' issue, it affects peoples lives, and they're getting frustrated.

Don't we use PLENTY of unkind 'overstatements' in other issues? Don't we often talk about "obnoxious tourists", "boorish sports fans", "shallow, materialistic yuppies", and "spineless politicians"?. These aren't 'kind' things to say, nor are they 100% accurate. Aren't they really just overly broad statements people make when they're frustrated?

I doubt that MOST of our fellow posters are hateful..more likely they're tired of the ongoing frustration, and see no real improvement in sight.
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:40 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,297 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Yes, "cowards" and 'villians" does sound harsh..but this is a highly-charged 'hot button' issue, it affects peoples lives, and they're getting frustrated.

Don't we use PLENTY of unkind 'overstatements' in other issues? Don't we often talk about "obnoxious tourists", "boorish sports fans", "shallow, materialistic yuppies", and "spineless politicians"?. These aren't 'kind' things to say, nor are they 100% accurate. Aren't they really just overly broad statements people make when they're frustrated?

I doubt that MOST of our fellow posters are hateful..more likely they're tired of the ongoing frustration, and see no real improvement in sight.
It's too bad you're the only one coming back with level-headed, thoughtful statements.
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