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Old 09-05-2008, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Think about that for a moment... I think the number of illegal immigrants is tallied at somewhere near 12 million. How many US citizens would be negatively affected by 12 million consumers and employees being deported all of the sudden? How many small businesses - restaurants, service shops, grocery stores, etc - would go out of business? How much would the cost of goods and housing go up with labor costs rising? How much would the government lose in income taxes? How much would be lost on sales taxes and local taxes? How many children would be without parents, thus bringing about more broken families, increasing crime, and adding further stress to our already ailing social services? Stop and think about everything that would be negatively affected by a mass deportation of 12 million people.... is it enough to offset the potential benefits? Show me all the data you're basing your theory on. It must be extremely complete data.

Who does my screen name fit best?
I am ready to find out....................besides; with the economy tanking as it is-----------we need fewer 'competitors' for the dwindling number of jobs out there.

As for Mexico having an additional 7-20 million people (including US born spouses/Anchor Babies) thrust back upon it---------either said nation grows up or shatters--------it is Mexico's choice how it deals with its impending tsunami.
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:46 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,655 times
Reputation: 488
I agree with the point that if we force US companies to hire US citizens, it would likely make a big impact. But it would also just generate more creativity to circumvent the system too. So I don't see that completely ending the encentive to cross illegally. Though it would slow it a bit.

Think of it this way - we have thousands of poor neighborhoods in our country. The crime rates in poor areas are much higher than in wealthier areas. Do we just put a wall up to keep the poor out of the wealthy areas? Or do we put programs in place to create opportunities where there were few or none? Doesn't that tend to have a bigger affect?

I know Mexico is not our responsibility, but wouldn't it be in our best interest to do something to help their economy so that their poor wouldn't have to keep crossing the border to work? Maybe offer tax breaks for companies who choose to outsource to Mexico instead of China or India? That's of course, after we offer larger tax breaks for companies to keep their plants in the US. Companies are going to outsource. Why not give them an incentive to help a neighboring company instead of one on the other side of the globe if it means fewer illegal immigrants. That, combined with stiffer border enforcement and harsh penalties for businesses in the US hiring them seems to be pretty logical.

I just don't think the a big wall and more guns is going to deter as many illegals as some think. And I think even punishing businesses for hiring them will not be enough. I think the root of the problem is the lack of opportunity in their own country that will keep them coming more than anything. Even if we decrease the opportunities for them here there will still likely be more than if they stayed where they are. And they'll likely take more risk to get across.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
But we aren't talking about "innocent" people either... keep in mind there are millions of people waiting to come here legally and illegals want to cut in line... would you like it if someone constantly cuts in line in front of you wherever you are? Dining at a restaurants, sorry 10 people just cut in line in front of you... opps another 10 just walked in and cut in front of you again.. and again... and again? How would you feel about that? Its not fair to the people waiting in line... and telling them "Oh well, too bad, they are human too you know." is not a good excuse...



You are right the corrupt government and drug cartels have been a big problem.. What should we do? Brand them as terrorists and attack them? European countries STILL has problems with illegal immigration and their help didn't do crap... We need barriers and we need reasons for people to not to cross over... people will cross over for many different reasons, most of them money... and the only way for them to stop is to cut off the money supply... shut down any place that hires illegals and you will see them stop coming here as well as put barriers to deter them and the incoming tide will stop PERIOD




If you shut off the money supply, they will self-deport... cost? Nothing... make laws to shut down any business that hires illegals and they will all self-deport themselves... the economy will be doing fantastic! We are over 6% in unemployement right now, we can fill all the people with jobs a plenty if the illegals left... Is it morally ethical right? Yes, the people who are waiting in line to come in here have FIRST dibs, it sure is the ethical thing to do to make line cutters go to the back of the line... or did you forget about the people waiting in line? Is it the humane thing to do? If you have a choice to give a job to a legal American citizen or an illegal who is currently in Mexico, which one would you give the job to? You are depriving the legal American citizen of a job to entice an illegal to come over and risk death crossing the desert and working with criminals... which is more humane?



Take the incentives? No more anchor babies, no more "free" passes to our educational system, and no more "free" passes to our resources... Yes, we need to shut down companies that hire illegals... they HAVE ways to hire legal workers from other countries but guess what? They are STUCK with the social cost of hiring the workers meaning the companies had to pay for health care and other social costs, NOT TAXPAYERS... the companies don't want to do that and they hire illegal workers and fight any laws to bar them... companies are NOT doing this for your sake, they could hire Americans but don't... don't fall for their rhetoric of burden.. they are flat out lying... its like asking a child if he/she will be fine without candy for the rest of their lives, of course they are going to claim "burden"...



Positive improvement? Honestly hate crimes have little to do with illegal immigration... since "hate" is really something that develops between people's experiences growing up... eventually, racism will go away (probably not in my lifetime)... are there hate crimes against "illegal immigrants", absolutely but illegal immigrants is not the "reason" for hate crimes... as I said earlier it has more to do with upbringing than illegal immigration... Solving racism is not something ANYONE can do, its just a part of life that eventually fades as other society keeps progressing... it takes time and people seem to think they can rush things they have no control over... you can't... we are not gods... we are just human...



As I said before, line cutting is not fair and those that cut in line need to go to the back of the line...

We need to set up barriers, not just for illegal immigration but also as to prevent drug runners, criminals, and whatever riff-raff seeks to enter this country illegally..

We need to set up policies to deter people from coming here illegally, no more anchor babies, no more free rides in education and such, shut down companies that hire illegal immigrants... these will insure that nobody wants to come here illegally...

Racism is one of those things that has to go away with time... people may have ridden horses for centuries but people are driving cars now... its something that takes time and will go away as our society develops... you can't "force" behavioral changes just like you can't simply invent a car in 200 B.C.... no matter how much you like to... it takes time and we just have to accept that these things are going to fade away with time... it is fading, we just got to give it time...
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:52 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,655 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I am ready to find out....................besides; with the economy tanking as it is-----------we need fewer 'competitors' for the dwindling number of jobs out there.

As for Mexico having an additional 7-20 million people (including US born spouses/Anchor Babies) thrust back upon it---------either said nation grows up or shatters--------it is Mexico's choice how it deals with its impending tsunami.
With all of the businesses that would close up due to fewer patrons, there would probably be even fewer jobs available. Remember, those 12 million people create jobs as well since they spend money. Can we afford to risk something like that with the current state of the economy?

And I don't see the US government allowing a neighboring nation to crumble into economic oblivion. It wouldn't be in our best interest to have a neighbor that's any more unstable than they already are. It would just breed more chaos.
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:54 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,036,601 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Think about that for a moment... I think the number of illegal immigrants is tallied at somewhere near 12 million. How many US citizens would be negatively affected by 12 million consumers and employees being deported all of the sudden? How many small businesses - restaurants, service shops, grocery stores, etc - would go out of business? How much would the cost of goods and housing go up with labor costs rising? How much would the government lose in income taxes? How much would be lost on sales taxes and local taxes? How many children would be without parents, thus bringing about more broken families, increasing crime, and adding further stress to our already ailing social services? Stop and think about everything that would be negatively affected by a mass deportation of 12 million people.... is it enough to offset the potential benefits? Show me all the data you're basing your theory on. It must be extremely complete data.

Who does my screen name fit best?

What a minute....is there a law that those anchor babies cannot go with their parents back to their parents native country? Then come back as adults if they wanted to?
That answer would be no.
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:00 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,036,601 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
I agree with the point that if we force US companies to hire US citizens, it would likely make a big impact. But it would also just generate more creativity to circumvent the system too. So I don't see that completely ending the encentive to cross illegally. Though it would slow it a bit.

Think of it this way - we have thousands of poor neighborhoods in our country. The crime rates in poor areas are much higher than in wealthier areas. Do we just put a wall up to keep the poor out of the wealthy areas? Or do we put programs in place to create opportunities where there were few or none? Doesn't that tend to have a bigger affect?

I know Mexico is not our responsibility, but wouldn't it be in our best interest to do something to help their economy so that their poor wouldn't have to keep crossing the border to work? Maybe offer tax breaks for companies who choose to outsource to Mexico instead of China or India? That's of course, after we offer larger tax breaks for companies to keep their plants in the US. Companies are going to outsource. Why not give them an incentive to help a neighboring company instead of one on the other side of the globe if it means fewer illegal immigrants. That, combined with stiffer border enforcement and harsh penalties for businesses in the US hiring them seems to be pretty logical.

I just don't think the a big wall and more guns is going to deter as many illegals as some think. And I think even punishing businesses for hiring them will not be enough. I think the root of the problem is the lack of opportunity in their own country that will keep them coming more than anything. Even if we decrease the opportunities for them here there will still likely be more than if they stayed where they are. And they'll likely take more risk to get across.
The us is not in a position to better another country at the expense of its own citizens. The money is tapped out, brother. The jobs are needed here. We cannot help mexico when we are fast getting to the point of not helping ourselves. Besides, if we give mexico our businesses and if give mexico loans -- isn't that like welfare, in a way? And that is a social program that has failed miserably.

As hard as it sounds (and undeniably illegals are going to be by and large decent people) we need to set a figure our country can absorb not just today but for the next 50 years and stick to it. Guard the borders, raid businesses, impose fines and jail time to offenders that hire/smuggle/help illegals. Impose tariffs and higher tax brackets on businesses that go overseas. It is a hard line, but the question cannot be how can the US keep mexico stable, it is how can the us keep the us stable.
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:09 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,655 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
What a minute....is there a law that those anchor babies cannot go with their parents back to their parents native country? Then come back as adults if they wanted to?
That answer would be no.
I don't know of a law like that. But I seriously doubt the parents would want to take their children away from opportunities that they certainly will not have growing up in their native country, especially if they came here for a better life in the first place. I'd bet they'd stay.
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:11 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,036,601 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
I don't know of a law like that. But I seriously doubt the parents would want to take their children away from opportunities that they certainly will not have growing up in their native country, especially if they came here for a better life in the first place. I'd bet they'd stay.
Then that would be the parents choice, not the us government 'tearing families apart'.
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:17 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,655 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
The us is not in a position to better another country at the expense of its own citizens. The money is tapped out, brother. The jobs are needed here. We cannot help mexico when we are fast getting to the point of not helping ourselves. Besides, if we give mexico our businesses and if give mexico loans -- isn't that like welfare, in a way? And that is a social program that has failed miserably.

As hard as it sounds (and undeniably illegals are going to be by and large decent people) we need to set a figure our country can absorb not just today but for the next 50 years and stick to it. Guard the borders, raid businesses, impose fines and jail time to offenders that hire/smuggle/help illegals. Impose tariffs and higher tax brackets on businesses that go overseas. It is a hard line, but the question cannot be how can the US keep mexico stable, it is how can the us keep the us stable.
Okay so maybe instead of offering tax breaks, just lower tariffs for businesses that operate in Mexico than Asia? And still offer substantial tax breaks to companies who keep their plants here in the states. Wouldn't that help improve Mexico's economy and still help ours as well?

The point is, we think we cannot afford to help Mexico because we need to help ourselves. But if we don't help Mexico's economy, at least a little bit more, won't that cost us more money in the long run? We'll need to spend more money on border patrol, people will still be coming across, and it won't stop until they have opportunities where they're at. Doesn't that make sense?
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:21 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,655 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Then that would be the parents choice, not the us government 'tearing families apart'.
Okay. That wasn't the point though. The point was that it would tax our social services more and has the potential to breed more crime and poverty as the result of a sharp increase in broken families.
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:41 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,711,852 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Think about that for a moment... I think the number of illegal immigrants is tallied at somewhere near 12 million. How many US citizens would be negatively affected by 12 million consumers and employees being deported all of the sudden? How many small businesses - restaurants, service shops, grocery stores, etc - would go out of business? How much would the cost of goods and housing go up with labor costs rising? How much would the government lose in income taxes? How much would be lost on sales taxes and local taxes? How many children would be without parents, thus bringing about more broken families, increasing crime, and adding further stress to our already ailing social services? Stop and think about everything that would be negatively affected by a mass deportation of 12 million people.... is it enough to offset the potential benefits? Show me all the data you're basing your theory on. It must be extremely complete data.

Who does my screen name fit best?

They did not all arrive at once and they will probably not all leave at once either.
A number of people have already presented very reasonable solutions involving actual enforcement of the laws already on the books and cutting off the jobs and 'free' benefits that draw them here in the first place. The 14th Amendment has long since fulfilled it's original purpose. It has been prostituted to serve as cover for illegal aliens who cross into the US for the express purpose of giving birth to a US citizen. Get rid of it. The way things stand now, it is of no benefit to anyone except people seeking to abuse our generosity.



Quote:
I guess I just would like to see a solution that works for everyone and does as little damage to peoples' lives as possible. Illegal immigration should be put in check. I was hoping to see more solutions that put more thought into the lives of everyone involved.
I suspect that what you are talking about is amnesty. It did not work in 1986 and it won't work now. We now have at least four times as many illegals as we had when amnesty was passed. Illegal aliens need to understand that if they come here in violation of our immigration laws or overstay a visa, this is NOT going to lead to citizenship.
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