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Old 09-05-2008, 11:18 AM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,263 times
Reputation: 488

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I hear and read a lot of divisive opinions on the subject all the time. But nobody seems to have a viable solution to the problems. We all know the issues, we all have some ideas of what the potential solutions could look like. But some people seem to think it's an easy fix - "just send them all back where they came from". The more intelligent discussions I've seen often have more thought put into it than that. Let's take a minute and have an intelligent discussion about it, and please, let's keep in mind that these are human beings we're talking about. Not animals.

The main issues:

- The root of the problem in my opinion is Mexico's high poverty level and poor economy. Any security measures we put in place (fences, armed guards, etc) or laws we enforce will not stop people from risking their lives to get across our southern border. We could slow down the flow, but only a little. Shouldn't there be something done to address the root of the problem? I know this has happened in a few European countries, where the nation with the stronger economy had to help the neighboring country with their poor economy to prevent a flood of immigrants looking for work.

- How to deal with people that came here illegally? Sure, we could deport everyone we come across. How expensive will that be? And what impact would that have on our economy? And is that really the humane and morally ethical thing to do? I haven't heard a good plan yet that addresses all points of this issue well.

- How do address the laws and policies going forward to take away the incentives for illegal border crossing? One law that was on the ballot last time around was putting more responsibility on companies to check for citizenship and punish those companies that ignore those checks, or worse, knowingly hire illegals. For some reason, it didn't get passed and I'm not sure why. I think I heard that Congress didn't want to impose more costs on businesses, and that they felt it would put too much burden on the economy. It would seem to me that our economy is creating a demand for illegal immigration. So how do we change that?

- How do we achieve all the goals to make a positive improvement without bringing about more hate crimes, racism, and violence? There is already a good deal of tension surrounding this issue, and too many people are starting to sound anti-Mexican more than anti-illegal immigration. That's quite disturbing and makes our nation look as bad as it did 40 years ago.


I'd like to read some ideas on rational, intelligent, and well thought out plans that would actually help solve the problems without inciting more hatred and disgusting attitudes that are embarrassing to many of us Americans.

Last edited by Ludachris; 09-05-2008 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
The sad part is that Mexico is not a poor nation: its per capita income is almost $13K a year.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:26 AM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,101 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
I hear and read a lot of divisive opinions on the subject all the time. But nobody seems to have a viable solution to the problems. We all know the issues, we all have some ideas of what the potential solutions could look like. But some people seem to think it's an easy fix - "just send them all back where they came from". The more intelligent discussions I've seen often have more thought put into it than that. Let's take a minute and have an intelligent discussion about it, and please, let's keep in mind that these are human beings we're talking about. Not animals.

The main issues:

- The root of the problem in my opinion is Mexico's high poverty level and poor economy. Any security measures we put in place (fences, armed guards, etc) or laws we enforce will not stop people from risking their lives to get across our southern border. We could slow down the flow, but only a little. Shouldn't there be something done to address the root of the problem? I know this has happened in a few European countries, where the nation with the stronger economy had to help the neighboring country with their poor economy to prevent a flood of immigrants looking for work.

- How to deal with people that came here illegally? Sure, we could deport everyone we come across. How expensive will that be? And what impact would that have on our economy? And is that really the humane and morally ethical thing to do? I haven't heard a good plan yet that addresses all points of this issue well.


- How do address the laws going forward to take away the incentives for illegal border crossing? One law that was on the ballot last time around was putting more responsibility on companies to check for citizenship and punish those companies that ignore those checks, or worse, knowingly hire illegals. For some reason, it didn't get passed and I'm not sure why. I think I heard that Congress didn't want to impose more costs on businesses, and that they felt it would put too much burden on the economy. It would seem to me that our economy is creating a demand for illegal immigration. So how do we change that?


- How do we achieve all the goals to make a positive improvement without bringing about more hate crimes, racism, and violence? There is already a good deal of tension surrounding this issue, and too many people are starting to sound anti-Mexican more than anti-illegal immigration. That's quite disturbing and makes our nation look as bad as it did 40 years ago.

I'd like to read some ideas on rational, intelligent, and well thought out plans that would actually help solve the problems without inciting more hatred and disgusting attitudes that are embarrassing to many of us Americans.
You can't keep them out, only slow down the process like you said. It's better to try then not to.

Strict measures. Fine employers who hire illegals and the whole shabang. Fuel a guest worker program, a law saying that if you are caught illegally you will be deported and will not qualify for the guest worker program for 10 years. If chosen to self-deport, you can still apply with no reprocussions.

The Government is in it for the will of the companies-- not the people.

I believe that to be normal. Ben Franklin hated germans and hated they were not learning english, nor assimilating. They assimilated. They learned English. They became Americans. Who's to say these immigrants won't in a few generations?
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:28 AM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,263 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
The sad part is that Mexico is not a poor nation: its per capita income is almost $13K a year.
That's because the rich are super rich and the poor are ultra poor. There is a disappearing middle class in Mexico and it's causing a lot of desperation. I'm very familiar with the first hand accounts of the economy there, having family there.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:32 AM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,101 times
Reputation: 76
I don't wouldn't know what the guidelines of middleclass is in Mexico. But my mom says she grew up poor.. after having a two story home with a 7 bedroom house. My grandpa loans money nowadays.. I don't think a lot of people in Mexico can lend $50,000 in one shot.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:38 AM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,050 posts, read 21,163,651 times
Reputation: 22525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
That's because the rich are super rich and the poor are ultra poor. There is a disappearing middle class in Mexico and it's causing a lot of desperation. I'm very familiar with the first hand accounts of the economy there, having family there.
So therein lies the solution - convince the Mexicans to treat their people fairly. It is not necessary for the US to do this for them. We already funnel millions of dollars to Mexico every year.

By the way, the scenario you described (the super rich and super poor) is where we are headed as a nation ever since the illegal invasion - so brace yourself for the bumpy ride (unless you are one of the super rich - which I doubt, because then you wouldn't wasting your time posting on CD).
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:07 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,035,044 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
I hear and read a lot of divisive opinions on the subject all the time. But nobody seems to have a viable solution to the problems. We all know the issues, we all have some ideas of what the potential solutions could look like. But some people seem to think it's an easy fix - "just send them all back where they came from". The more intelligent discussions I've seen often have more thought put into it than that. Let's take a minute and have an intelligent discussion about it, and please, let's keep in mind that these are human beings we're talking about. Not animals.

The main issues:

- The root of the problem in my opinion is Mexico's high poverty level and poor economy. Any security measures we put in place (fences, armed guards, etc) or laws we enforce will not stop people from risking their lives to get across our southern border. We could slow down the flow, but only a little. Shouldn't there be something done to address the root of the problem? I know this has happened in a few European countries, where the nation with the stronger economy had to help the neighboring country with their poor economy to prevent a flood of immigrants looking for work.
We cannot nor shouldnot invade mexico to create social equality. The mexicans themselves have to do it, so far it hasn't been a priority to them. Why not? Because the southern border has been its escape valve, mexico sends its flotsam north thus not having to deal with a lot of angry peasants. When those poor people (having gotten a taste of american compassion via social services) comes home to mexico --- then you can expect to start to see change happening.
- How to deal with people that came here illegally? Sure, we could deport everyone we come across. How expensive will that be? And what impact would that have on our economy? And is that really the humane and morally ethical thing to do? I haven't heard a good plan yet that addresses all points of this issue well.
It is less expensive in the long run to deport them then allow them to stay for decades and undoubtedly have us born children. Deport them immediatly when caught, only giving them the option of bringing any other illegal family members with them.
- How do address the laws and policies going forward to take away the incentives for illegal border crossing? One law that was on the ballot last time around was putting more responsibility on companies to check for citizenship and punish those companies that ignore those checks, or worse, knowingly hire illegals. For some reason, it didn't get passed and I'm not sure why. I think I heard that Congress didn't want to impose more costs on businesses, and that they felt it would put too much burden on the economy. It would seem to me that our economy is creating a demand for illegal immigration. So how do we change that?
Fine businesses that hire illegals and impose increasingly severe fines and jail sentences for those businesses that keep hiring illegals. Eventually they will get the message. Of course, to do that we need to get the local governments out of bed with these businesses in the first place...you can't tell me that the mayors and sheriffs in these small towns have no idea that the lone big employer of the town is hiring illegals.
- How do we achieve all the goals to make a positive improvement without bringing about more hate crimes, racism, and violence? There is already a good deal of tension surrounding this issue, and too many people are starting to sound anti-Mexican more than anti-illegal immigration. That's quite disturbing and makes our nation look as bad as it did 40 years ago.
Talk to la raza, mecha and lulac about this one. If illegals weren't parading and demonstrating while chanting in spanish and waving mexican flags the anger towards hispanic, most specifically mexican illegals wouldn't be there.

I'd like to read some ideas on rational, intelligent, and well thought out plans that would actually help solve the problems without inciting more hatred and disgusting attitudes that are embarrassing to many of us Americans.
Nice to see you managed to slur people that are against illegal immigration in your last sentence. Couldn't help yourself, could you?
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
It is a myth of monumental proportion that we can’t keep them out. If we had our National Guard remain on the border along with the Border Patrol, and gave them strong directives for rules of engagement (each armed with an AK47), we would have few people even attempting to illegally enter this country. We are a sovereign nation, and we have a right to defend our borders.

We are not responsible for Mexico; they are a sovereign nation and have the resources to support their own people. They are simply dumping their underclass and criminals into this country for the hard-working U.S. taxpayers to subsidize. Frankly, I am sick of my tax dollars being squandered on illegal aliens.

Attrition through enforcement works. Therefore, we would not be burdened with astronomical deportation expenses. They can return home in the same manner they came. Those who refuse to leave should be deported, and prevented from ever returning.

We simply need to enforce ALL immigration laws, and they will not come. If they are unable to work, unable to receive freebies, unable to obtain shelter, unable to use our ER’s as their primary care physicians, they will not come.

Rescind the 14th Amendment, and they will not enter this country for the sole purpose of giving birth to a U.S. citizen. No prenatal/postnatal care, no WIC, welfare, etc. Only those born to a legal citizen will be considered a U.S. citizen.

Change the law that mandates a free K-12 tax-funded education for ALL children residing in this country. Only legal U.S. citizens would be eligible for a “free” public school education. No daily border crossings from Mexico to attend school.

Put the fear of God into businesses who hire illegal aliens. No more slaps on the wrist. Severe penalties and prison sentences -- minimum prison sentence should be 10 years without probation.
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:17 PM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,101 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Put the fear of God into businesses who hire illegal aliens. No more slaps on the wrist. Severe penalties and prison sentences -- minimum prison sentence should be 10 years without probation.
That's just it-- you can only get a slap on the wrist for entering the U.S illegally the first time.
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Californio View Post
That's just it-- you can only get a slap on the wrist for entering the U.S illegally the first time.
Not if we change our laws. Any illegal entry should be a felony, with immediate deportation.
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