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View Poll Results: Public enemy number one in the war for our children?
Good thing 3 27.27%
Bad thing 8 72.73%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-06-2008, 03:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
So why does certain people coming to this country equal ethnic war?
WHICH people? Be specific, please....and what, exactly, is the definition of 'ethnic war"?.
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Old 09-06-2008, 03:51 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I was talking more about general open-ended multiculturalism, not specifically our 'next door neighbors'. But my post holds true...if Mexican illegals are "OK", and it's morally wrong to 'stop' them, isn't it EQUALLY wrong to stop anyone ELSE? Food for thought, at least, it seems to me..
I never said it was morally wrong to stop them from crossing. But I think it could be morally questionable to have allowed them to come across for so many years without enforcing the laws much and then turn around and try to deport them all now that they've already built a life here.

I think the point I've been trying to get across this whole time was that people are brushing off the human aspect, using the old "not our problem" card and making them all out to be freeloading criminals. I just think that viewpoint is a bit extreme. That's all. Again, I may have a different viewpoint because I grew up in a poor family, I'm married to a woman with Mexican heritage, and I've been to Mexico enough times to see what the poor are trying to escape from. It's probably easier for me to sympathize with some of these human beings due to my life experiences more so than others on this board.
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Old 09-06-2008, 04:02 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
WHICH people? Be specific, please....and what, exactly, is the definition of 'ethnic war"?.
"Balkanization", and your fear of too many cultures in this country
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Old 09-06-2008, 04:04 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
I never said it was morally wrong to stop them from crossing. But I think it could be morally questionable to have allowed them to come across for so many years without enforcing the laws much and then turn around and try to deport them all now that they've already built a life here.

I think the point I've been trying to get across this whole time was that people are brushing off the human aspect, using the old "not our problem" card and making them all out to be freeloading criminals. I just think that viewpoint is a bit extreme. That's all. Again, I may have a different viewpoint because I grew up in a poor family, I'm married to a woman with Mexican heritage, and I've been to Mexico enough times to see what the poor are trying to escape from. It's probably easier for me to sympathize with some of these human beings due to my life experiences more so than others on this board.
I'm married to an American Indian whose grandparents spoke Spanish and who would probably BE Mexicans, if someone hadn't moved the border a few decades ago. I've heard the 'illegal' position from both sides' for over 40 years now. I've seen racism and prejudice, I've seen poverty in Mexico AND in California, and I've know many dozens of folks who've arrived here, some before I was born, some just recently, and many, at one time illegally. I've known ,worked with, and socialized with MANY illegals over the years whom I've liked and admired. But I suspect I'd probably like a LOT of lawbreakers as well..that's just 'me'.

I sympathize with your 'take' and admire your compassion. I simply think its misplaced. I lost many of my 'illusions' a decade or so ago...(and I'll let you in on a little secret..it's my belief that a lot of illegals lost THEIR illusions, too.)
Sorry, but I've been at this a LONG time...and the illegal imigration today just has no resemblance to that of 20 to 30 years ago.

You sound like a good person. Pardon my cynicism, but I'm just not 'buying' some of this stuff. Neither are the descendants of many FORMER Mexican immigrants. But I do admire your good intentions, and I wish you well.
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Old 09-06-2008, 04:09 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
"Balkanization", and your fear of too many cultures in this country
Sorry...you've beaten me down. There's just no other way that I know of to explain my position that I haven't written REPEATEDLY before...many times, directly to you. If you don't 'get it', I guess that's that.

Best wishes to you.
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Old 09-06-2008, 04:10 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'm married to an American Indian whose grandparents spoke Spanish and who would probably BE Mexicans, if someone hadn't moved the border a few decades ago. I've heard the 'illegal' position from both sides' for over 40 years now. I've seen racism and prejudice, I've seen poverty in Mexico AND in California, and I've know many dozens of folks who've arrived here, some before I was born, some just recently, and many, at one time illegally. I've known ,worked with, and socialized with MANY illegals over the years whom I've liked and admired. But I suspect I'd probably like a LOT of lawbreakers as well..that's just 'me'.

I sympathize with your 'take' and admire your compassion. I simply think its misplaced. I lost many of my 'illusions' a decade or so ago...(and I'll let you in on a little secret..it's my belief that a lot of illegals lost THEIR illusions, too.)
Sorry, but I've been at this a LONG time...and the illegal imigration today just has no resemblance to that of 20 to 30 years ago.

You sound like a good person. Pardon my cynicism, but I'm just not 'buying' some of this stuff. Neither are the descendants of many FORMER Mexican immigrants. But I do admire your good intentions, and I wish you well.
Same here macmeal, and thanks for the kind words.

You've obviously got some years on me and some more experience. Maybe my compassion is a little misplaced. Obviously I don't feel that way, but I won't say that it's not a possibility. I just wish that others would consider the same possibility on their position.
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Old 09-06-2008, 04:12 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Same here macmeal, and thanks for the kind words.

You've obviously got some years on me and some more experience. Maybe my compassion is a little misplaced. Obviously I don't feel that way, but I won't say that it's not a possibility. I just wish that others would consider the same thing on their end.
Compassion may be misplaced, but it's ALWAYS a good thing...never lose it...re-direct it if you must. Enjoyed hearing from you.
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Old 09-06-2008, 09:44 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,420,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Californio View Post
The destruction of a country happens when people do not assimilate and try to preserve their culture. These cultures who will not assimilate try hard to protect their own. This causes tension. This tension leads to fights.
I am sorry, but our very culture is a conglomeration of traits from other people's culture, people who obviously failed to assimilate fast enough, because their traits became part of our culture. EVERYTHING our culture is based on came from somewhere else, remember. Hell, think of the lands we purchased from other nations (Texas, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Wyoming, California, Nevada, and Utah from Mexico alone)

Look at food to start with. What is now mainstream must have once been new and different. Do you think the pilgrims were eating Lasagna? I don't think so. At some point the Italians came here, and they didn't assimilate right away, hence, we've got lasagna and tons of other "italian" dishes--most of which should really be called "italian american dishes". Same for Greek for example. Looking at the food we eat every day is only one indication of where we all come from.

The culture of the people of the United States of America is not static, it is a dynamic, ever changing thing, always has been and always will be. To think it should remain the way it is now would be very narrow minded, and would be disregarding the evolution of our culture.

It has never stayed the same! Why would it now?

People assimilate at different rates, but they do assimilate eventually. What freaks people out, and gets them all in a tizzy, is the fact that some people from various cultures are numerous enough that they do not have to assimilate fast enough for our liking.....And some struggle against assimilation. But guaranteed, they will eventually assimilate.

(Well, the Amish haven't really assimilated, do we want to start bitc*ing about that now, or has everyone pretty much accepted that they are their own little community at this point?) If you want to complain about the mexicans, the puerto ricans, the arabs, the whoever else, why not be fair and come back to the Amish?

Who are we here in the US at the present time to think that we are the final people that should be here, and that the way we do things now, our way alone, is the best way and should not change? This country had the capacity to let our families in, ( on one side of mine, they came a few hundred years ago, on the other, my great grandmother immigrated with her children) I am sure that at the time that our families came, there were people already here that wanted nothing to do with our families, and might have even despised where our families came from and what they stood for. They probably didn't want our families coming in, to compete for their jobs!

The tension is caused by people who are so afraid of the culture changing a bit that they resist the immigrants and the change that they bring with them. And of course immigrants are going to try to hang onto whatever they can, who wouldn't after hearing all the people who are saying they should leave their identities on the boat or plane they got off of. If they did do that, to me its a crying shame.
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:13 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
I am sorry, but our very culture is a conglomeration of traits from other people's culture, people who obviously failed to assimilate fast enough, because their traits became part of our culture. EVERYTHING our culture is based on came from somewhere else, remember. Hell, think of the lands we purchased from other nations (Texas, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Wyoming, California, Nevada, and Utah from Mexico alone)

Look at food to start with. What is now mainstream must have once been new and different. Do you think the pilgrims were eating Lasagna? I don't think so. At some point the Italians came here, and they didn't assimilate right away, hence, we've got lasagna and tons of other "italian" dishes--most of which should really be called "italian american dishes". Same for Greek for example. Looking at the food we eat every day is only one indication of where we all come from.

The culture of the people of the United States of America is not static, it is a dynamic, ever changing thing, always has been and always will be. To think it should remain the way it is now would be very narrow minded, and would be disregarding the evolution of our culture.

It has never stayed the same! Why would it now?

People assimilate at different rates, but they do assimilate eventually. What freaks people out, and gets them all in a tizzy, is the fact that some people from various cultures are numerous enough that they do not have to assimilate fast enough for our liking.....And some struggle against assimilation. But guaranteed, they will eventually assimilate.

(Well, the Amish haven't really assimilated, do we want to start bitc*ing about that now, or has everyone pretty much accepted that they are their own little community at this point?) If you want to complain about the mexicans, the puerto ricans, the arabs, the whoever else, why not be fair and come back to the Amish?

Who are we here in the US at the present time to think that we are the final people that should be here, and that the way we do things now, our way alone, is the best way and should not change? This country had the capacity to let our families in, ( on one side of mine, they came a few hundred years ago, on the other, my great grandmother immigrated with her children) I am sure that at the time that our families came, there were people already here that wanted nothing to do with our families, and might have even despised where our families came from and what they stood for. They probably didn't want our families coming in, to compete for their jobs!

The tension is caused by people who are so afraid of the culture changing a bit that they resist the immigrants and the change that they bring with them. And of course immigrants are going to try to hang onto whatever they can, who wouldn't after hearing all the people who are saying they should leave their identities on the boat or plane they got off of. If they did do that, to me its a crying shame.
I don't know...I'm still not as confident as you, I guess. I just can't get over my fear of a huge, angry Amish Riot.....or a lot of "hex sign" grafitti apearing all over my neighborhood...or a "Trot-by Shooting"......or a violent "buggy-jacking" incident......those people are just SO DIFFERENT...(sigh)..I WISH I had your optimism. They ACT funny, they TALK funny, and they're NOT LIKE US.

Good point, comparing today's illegals with the Amish. I sure can't see any differences in their behavior, now that you mention it. Neither ONE of them seems at ALL interested in assimilating.

Thanks for opening my eyes.
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:52 PM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I don't know...I'm still not as confident as you, I guess. I just can't get over my fear of a huge, angry Amish Riot.....or a lot of "hex sign" grafitti apearing all over my neighborhood...or a "Trot-by Shooting"......or a violent "buggy-jacking" incident......those people are just SO DIFFERENT...(sigh)..I WISH I had your optimism. They ACT funny, they TALK funny, and they're NOT LIKE US.

Good point, comparing today's illegals with the Amish. I sure can't see any differences in their behavior, now that you mention it. Neither ONE of them seems at ALL interested in assimilating.

Thanks for opening my eyes.
You know who's been here the longest and not assimilating? The Native Americans. Yes the British took their land, the people of today cannot be held responsible for that. For that matter, any injustice his/her ancestor may have caused does not make that person liable for another's situation.
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