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Old 09-07-2008, 10:55 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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I'll address this to ANY poster, on any 'side' who cares to respond. Let me 'turn this around' just a bit, and look at it from a little different angle.

Let's take a hypothetical country..ANY country you care to name. That country has a basic 'way of life', some degree of a common culture, and many shared common traits and ideals.

Now bring in another group....ANY other group, a group somewhat different in ideals and outlook than the 'locals'. Have this 'new group' arrive in just a few decades, in the MULTIPLE MILLIONS. Let's say a large percentage of these new arrivals come illegally, without permission, and arrive telling the locals they'd "better get used to us", that they "really have nothing to say", that the whole situation is "out of your hands", and there's "nothing you can do to stop us". Don't worry about race or ethnicity or color..make it simply a matter of clashing values and cultures, and a group 'moving in' on another group.

HERE'S MY QUESTION: Can ANYONE envision the above scenario, in ANY context you want to, in ANY country you can name anywhere in the world...even an 'imaginary' country....and can you honestly say that this wouldn't cause MAJOR alarm in the 'local' population? Maybe SOME of the locals would be upset, would grumble, maybe be fearful or annoyed? I can't. In fact, I continue to believe that if this happened in MOST countries, it would result in violence, bloodshed, and very likely war.

This essentially is what's happening in the US, today, as we speak. What's the result? Some people are upset. Some are fearful and pessimistic. Some grumble, and a few say stupid, unkind things.

Sorry, but I just don't find this surprising. What's remarkable to me is not the 'racism and xenophobia' of US society, but its very rare and singular tolerance. What the "average Joe" here in the US is being asked to tolerate, accept, and accomodate today, FEW people in FEW countries would agree with. How many countries would sit by, smile, and give an 'open arms' greeting to literally MILLIONS of uninvited trespassers, and never say a word in protest? I don't know how many, but I'd be willing to bet it would be VERY few.

American 'intolerance', to the degree that it exists,wouldn't even be a 'blip' on the general scale of world cultures and nations. What DOES stand out is America's remarkable tolerance and openness. It puts us in a pretty small 'in-group' and I must say, several LIGHT-YEARS ahead of many of our loudest critics. Can anyone spell "H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y ?" It's a word that comes to mind whenever I hear about how 'xenophobic" and 'mean" we are.

By all means, lets continue to discuss American intolerance, racism, selfishness, hatred, and xenophobia. But if we do, PLEASE...let's keep it in context.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll address this to ANY poster, on any 'side' who cares to respond. Let me 'turn this around' just a bit, and look at it from a little different angle.

Let's take a hypothetical country..ANY country you care to name. That country has a basic 'way of life', some degree of a common culture, and many shared common traits and ideals.

Now bring in another group....ANY other group, a group somewhat different in ideals and outlook than the 'locals'. Have this 'new group' arrive in just a few decades, in the MULTIPLE MILLIONS. Let's say a large percentage of these new arrivals come illegally, without permission, and arrive telling the locals they'd "better get used to us", that they "really have nothing to say", that the whole situation is "out of your hands", and there's "nothing you can do to stop us". Don't worry about race or ethnicity or color..make it simply a matter of clashing values and cultures, and a group 'moving in' on another group.

HERE'S MY QUESTION: Can ANYONE envision the above scenario, in ANY context you want to, in ANY country you can name anywhere in the world...even an 'imaginary' country....and can you honestly say that this wouldn't cause MAJOR alarm in the 'local' population? Maybe SOME of the locals would be upset, would grumble, maybe be fearful or annoyed? I can't. In fact, I continue to believe that if this happened in MOST countries, it would result in violence, bloodshed, and very likely war.

This essentially is what's happening in the US, today, as we speak. What's the result? Some people are upset. Some are fearful and pessimistic. Some grumble, and a few say stupid, unkind things.

Sorry, but I just don't find this surprising. What's remarkable to me is not the 'racism and xenophobia' of US society, but its very rare and singular tolerance. What the "average Joe" here in the US is being asked to tolerate, accept, and accomodate today, FEW people in FEW countries would agree with. How many countries would sit by, smile, and give an 'open arms' greeting to literally MILLIONS of uninvited trespassers, and never say a word in protest? I don't know how many, but I'd be willing to bet it would be VERY few.

American 'intolerance', to the degree that it exists,wouldn't even be a 'blip' on the general scale of world cultures and nations. What DOES stand out is America's remarkable tolerance and openness. It puts us in a pretty small 'in-group' and I must say, several LIGHT-YEARS ahead of many of our loudest critics. Can anyone spell "H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y ?" It's a word that comes to mind whenever I hear about how 'xenophobic" and 'mean" we are.

By all means, lets continue to discuss American intolerance, racism, selfishness, hatred, and xenophobia. But if we do, PLEASE...let's keep it in context.
I can't think of anything (at the moment) to add to this well-conceived, well-written, and thoroughly logical post. You simply never cease to amaze me. Perhaps Iíll think of something later, but I seriously doubt it.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:20 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I can't think of anything (at the moment) to add to this well-conceived, well-written, and thoroughly logical post. You simply never cease to amaze me. Perhaps Iíll think of something later, but I seriously doubt it.
Thanks....you make my day..
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Thanks....you make my day..
Why thank you, sir. The feeling is mutual.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:57 AM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,101 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Iím confused, Californio. Didnít you argue that ALL people are inherently racist? Why should racism even be an issue with you? According to your premise, arenít these people simply behaving as "normal" people should? Why do you now condemn behavior you supported last night as being normal?

Ah yes. There is a difference between spewing out racism and just being racist in the back of your mind. You should really check out the article I sent you.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:00 PM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,101 times
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Originally Posted by GuyPinestra View Post
This is the last item on the 'memo'. For being 22 years old, it seems that Mr. Tanton was a little prescient.

What EXACTLY do you find so disturbing in this 'memo'? Please feel free to C&P to illustrate your point.
Not only do I find some parts disturbing in this memo, describing the "Latin onslaught." I also find that him, being a white supremacist, co-founding/funding major anti-immigrant websites and information websites.. CIS, FAIR for example are the major ones.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,174,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Californio View Post
Not only do I find some parts disturbing in this memo, describing the "Latin onslaught." I also find that him, being a white supremacist, co-founding/funding major anti-immigrant websites and information websites.. CIS, FAIR for example are the major ones.
What would you describe over 20 million illegal aliens from Latin America as, if not an 'onslaught'?

And what is your PROOF that this man is a white supremacist?

And please be specific in your answers.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:15 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Californio View Post
Not only do I find some parts disturbing in this memo, describing the "Latin onslaught." I also find that him, being a white supremacist, co-founding/funding major anti-immigrant websites and information websites.. CIS, FAIR for example are the major ones.
Just for argument's sake, lets say the man IS a White Supremacist. This may call into question his morals and his motives, but it can't negate the facts. Are you suggesting the ONLY reason for any concern over illegals that anyone could have, is that they're "white supremacists"? You know better than that, (though a few apparently do not).

Yes, the presence of creepy ideals CAN get into the 'crux' of an argument, and can serve to 'derail' it....but truth is truth. What if someone believed the "world was flat", yet told you that smoking was harmful? Regardless of WHAT 'wacko' told you this, the fact remains that '"smoking is harmful" is a fact.

White supremacists are obviuosly going to have an interest in illegal immigration. But that doesn't mean it's their 'own personal issue'. It affects everyone.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:21 PM
 
1,417 posts, read 852,101 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Just for argument's sake, lets say the man IS a White Supremacist. This may call into question his morals and his motives, but it can't negate the facts. Are you suggesting the ONLY reason for any concern over illegals that anyone could have, is that they're "white supremacists"? You know better than that, (though a few apparently do not).

Yes, the presence of creepy ideals CAN get into the 'crux' of an argument, and can serve to 'derail' it....but truth is truth. What if someone believed the "world was flat", yet told you that smoking was harmful? Regardless of WHAT 'wacko' told you this, the fact remains that '"smoking is harmful" is a fact.

White supremacists are obviuosly going to have an interest in illegal immigration. But that doesn't mean it's their 'own personal issue'. It affects everyone.
I'm trying to say that this man hurts the "anti-illegal image" by bringing race/ethnicity to the game.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:29 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
I'm trying to say that this man hurts the "anti-illegal image" by bringing race/ethnicity to the game.
Of course. He has 'baggage' that spoils any argument he might make. It would be far better if he were replaced by a more 'neutral' party, for sure.
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