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Old 09-08-2008, 05:20 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll address this to ANY poster, on any 'side' who cares to respond. Let me 'turn this around' just a bit, and look at it from a little different angle.

Let's take a hypothetical country..ANY country you care to name. That country has a basic 'way of life', some degree of a common culture, and many shared common traits and ideals.

Now bring in another group....ANY other group, a group somewhat different in ideals and outlook than the 'locals'. Have this 'new group' arrive in just a few decades, in the MULTIPLE MILLIONS. Let's say a large percentage of these new arrivals come illegally, without permission, and arrive telling the locals they'd "better get used to us", that they "really have nothing to say", that the whole situation is "out of your hands", and there's "nothing you can do to stop us". Don't worry about race or ethnicity or color..make it simply a matter of clashing values and cultures, and a group 'moving in' on another group.

HERE'S MY QUESTION: Can ANYONE envision the above scenario, in ANY context you want to, in ANY country you can name anywhere in the world...even an 'imaginary' country....and can you honestly say that this wouldn't cause MAJOR alarm in the 'local' population? Maybe SOME of the locals would be upset, would grumble, maybe be fearful or annoyed? I can't. In fact, I continue to believe that if this happened in MOST countries, it would result in violence, bloodshed, and very likely war.

This essentially is what's happening in the US, today, as we speak. What's the result? Some people are upset. Some are fearful and pessimistic. Some grumble, and a few say stupid, unkind things.

Sorry, but I just don't find this surprising. What's remarkable to me is not the 'racism and xenophobia' of US society, but its very rare and singular tolerance. What the "average Joe" here in the US is being asked to tolerate, accept, and accomodate today, FEW people in FEW countries would agree with. How many countries would sit by, smile, and give an 'open arms' greeting to literally MILLIONS of uninvited trespassers, and never say a word in protest? I don't know how many, but I'd be willing to bet it would be VERY few.

American 'intolerance', to the degree that it exists,wouldn't even be a 'blip' on the general scale of world cultures and nations. What DOES stand out is America's remarkable tolerance and openness. It puts us in a pretty small 'in-group' and I must say, several LIGHT-YEARS ahead of many of our loudest critics. Can anyone spell "H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y ?" It's a word that comes to mind whenever I hear about how 'xenophobic" and 'mean" we are.

By all means, lets continue to discuss American intolerance, racism, selfishness, hatred, and xenophobia. But if we do, PLEASE...let's keep it in context.
I think the difference between here and any other country is that the US is unique, in that it doesn't have a native race (outside of Native Americans). It's made up of ethnic backgrounds from all over the world, and it's only 232 years old - which is pretty young.

We are said to be a melting pot, even though the majority of early settlers were white Europeans. And we promote freedoms, equality and civil rights, yet we also had slavery and extreme racism and discrimination (and the racism was still very bad up until 20-30 or so years ago) long after other nations had outgrown those traditions.

I think any racial 'pride' group who yearns to be the majority (or is afraid to lose the majority) would bother me. It tells me that race and power is more of a priority to them than culture. And American culture goes well beyond race or ethnic background, at least to me it does.
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Old 09-08-2008, 06:01 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
I think the difference between here and any other country is that the US is unique, in that it doesn't have a native race (outside of Native Americans). It's made up of ethnic backgrounds from all over the world, and it's only 232 years old - which is pretty young.

We are said to be a melting pot, even though the majority of early settlers were white Europeans. And we promote freedoms, equality and civil rights, yet we also had slavery and extreme racism and discrimination (and the racism was still very bad up until 20-30 or so years ago) long after other nations had outgrown those traditions.

I think any racial 'pride' group who yearns to be the majority (or is afraid to lose the majority) would bother me. It tells me that race and power is more of a priority to them than culture. And American culture goes well beyond race or ethnic background, at least to me it does.
Well, it's an ANSWER, so I can't complain. I DO have problems with the fact that theoretically, we were supposed to be a 'melting pot'...and this remained the 'ideal' up until a few decades ago. MOST newcomers (Mexican immigrants included) prior mto that time DID 'melt' or assimilate, to a large degree. Racism and 'setbacks' notwithstanding, the nation still managed to 'melt' a very diverse group of people into at least SOME semblance of a 'common culture', to the extent we were able to create a huge industrial base, 'tame' the wilderness, and win two World Wars. We did this not by 'celebrating' nor 'emphasizing' our differences, but by minimizing them...at least in public.

Today, we're trying to get rid of the 'melting pot'. Each of us, we feel, should 'be true to our heritage', and not let others tell us how to behave. We're told that each of our cultures is special, unique, and worthy of celebration....and there are almost NO 'norms', duties, obligations, or standards to which we feel we should be obligated.

It's obvious to me that while this may be 'fun' and interesting in good times, it could prove a real disaster if we're ever again 'tested'...as in the Great Depression, or World War II. We didn't survive those things because we were 'different' from each other...we did so because we were all 'part of the solution'.

Basically, I think diversity in 'outward' ways, like food, music, art, etc....AND in race...is fine. But TOO much diversity, on a deeper cultural, ethical level, is NOT a good plan for a nation of 300 Million people. We don't need to seek ways in which to differ...we need to seek ways in which we're similar, and emphasize that.
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Old 09-08-2008, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,175,726 times
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This ain't no melting pot any more, everybody wants to STAND OUT instead of FIT IN.

Recipe for DISASTER, mark my words!
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Old 09-08-2008, 11:18 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Basically, I think diversity in 'outward' ways, like food, music, art, etc....AND in race...is fine. But TOO much diversity, on a deeper cultural, ethical level, is NOT a good plan for a nation of 300 Million people. We don't need to seek ways in which to differ...we need to seek ways in which we're similar, and emphasize that.
I think we've shown that to still be the case though. Look at 9/11 - I remember everyone coming together, regardless of their backgrounds. It's all the decisions that have been made since then by our leaders that have caused a lot of people to be divided on issues.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:50 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
I think we've shown that to still be the case though. Look at 9/11 - I remember everyone coming together, regardless of their backgrounds. It's all the decisions that have been made since then by our leaders that have caused a lot of people to be divided on issues.
I'm not so sure about how we "came together". Of course MOST of us did, if only for a brief few weeks. But within DAYS after 9/11, I heard a number of people, on the radio, at my workplace, and in social settings, begin to suggest we had "asked for it", had "brought it on ourselves", and that "the terrorists acted out because 'we' had oppressed 'them'....and many similar comments. Not a common thing, mind you, (and I DO live in Southern Cal, so maybe this wasn't typical)....but I heard enough of this stuff to get my attention.

I can't help wondering if the mood in America just after Pearl Harbor had much "we FORCED the Japanese to do what they did, by making them ANGRY"-type sentiments. Somehow I doubt this, and you'll recall we went on to win a rather nasty and protracted war against our aggressors then. Could we do that NOW? I honestly don't know. But I'm a little doubtful about how 'together' we are....or the value of trying to 'force-feed' democracy upon those for whom, apparently, it just isn't a priority.

Just a few weeks following 9-11, the City of Berkeley (CA) ordered its fire department to remove those silly oversize American Flags from its trucks that were being flown in solidarity with the 9-11 victims. THe time had come to take them down, it was explained, because they might have a 'divisive' effect upon the community. hmmmm....coming together? I wonder.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:33 AM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,297 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'm not so sure about how we "came together". Of course MOST of us did, if only for a brief few weeks. But within DAYS after 9/11, I heard a number of people, on the radio, at my workplace, and in social settings, begin to suggest we had "asked for it", had "brought it on ourselves", and that "the terrorists acted out because 'we' had oppressed 'them'....and many similar comments. Not a common thing, mind you, (and I DO live in Southern Cal, so maybe this wasn't typical)....but I heard enough of this stuff to get my attention.

I can't help wondering if the mood in America just after Pearl Harbor had much "we FORCED the Japanese to do what they did, by making them ANGRY"-type sentiments. Somehow I doubt this, and you'll recall we went on to win a rather nasty and protracted war against our aggressors then. Could we do that NOW? I honestly don't know. But I'm a little doubtful about how 'together' we are....or the value of trying to 'force-feed' democracy upon those for whom, apparently, it just isn't a priority.

Just a few weeks following 9-11, the City of Berkeley (CA) ordered its fire department to remove those silly oversize American Flags from its trucks that were being flown in solidarity with the 9-11 victims. THe time had come to take them down, it was explained, because they might have a 'divisive' effect upon the community. hmmmm....coming together? I wonder.
I think that has a lot to do with how the media is the voice of our politics. And how politics these days is nothing more than a bunch of marketing plans.

I think overall, the US came together and realized it was crucial we came together. But it was different from Peal Harbor in the sense that "people" had attacked us, and not an army on orders from a government. I think some people were trying to figure out why other "people" would want to attack us like that - where did all that resentment stem from. There weren't many answers.

I don't think it was appropriate to suggest that we had brought it upon ourselves. But I also don't think that those comments suggest that we still didn't come together as a nation. Removing the American flags from the fire trucks was just ridiculous. Then again, Berkley always has been a different type of animal.
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Old 09-09-2008, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Missouri
3,640 posts, read 4,310,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
I think we've shown that to still be the case though. Look at 9/11 - I remember everyone coming together, regardless of their backgrounds. It's all the decisions that have been made since then by our leaders that have caused a lot of people to be divided on issues.
Though I do agree, to a point only, that the leaders do help to make the people more divided since we all know that divided house can not possibly win. The facts are that the illegals did this to themselves by DEMANDING rights they have no right to. Anyone who happens to talk up illegals also show that they are against our country.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:57 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous Political Junky View Post
The facts are that the illegals did this to themselves by DEMANDING rights they have no right to.
The illegals who do demand, or feel they are entitled to the same rights as citizens sure have created an angry mob, I'll give you that. I'm sure they've pissed off the millions who have kept to themselves and tried to stay under the radar. Maybe the misguided feelings of entitlement from the few will be what gets the ball rolling on some action amongst our government leaders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous Political Junky View Post
Anyone who happens to talk up illegals also show that they are against our country.
So we've got racists on one side of the issue and Americans who hate their country on the other.... or did I just oversimplify everything too much? [/sarcasm]
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,892,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
The illegals who do demand, or feel they are entitled to the same rights as citizens sure have created an angry mob, I'll give you that. I'm sure they've pissed off the millions who have kept to themselves and tried to stay under the radar. Maybe the misguided feelings of entitlement from the few will be what gets the ball rolling on some action amongst our government leaders. So we've got racists on one side of the issue and Americans who hate their country on the other.... or did I just oversimplify everything too much? [/sarcasm]
You over simplfied it.
They didn't just demand the same rights as legals, they demand more. They demand a head of line pass with a no questions asked pass to a visa. They want past crimes forgiven and a clean slate all while flying a mexican flag. They demand that they not be forced to learn the common language of our land. They demand a lot.
We have racists on both sides of the fence. We have those who slander all illegals regardless of race or point of origin. And we have those who slander americans calling us lazy, greedy, inhumane and biggots. Nor because we single out any race, nor because we have ever used a racial slur. But because we feel our laws should be enforced.
For example Sassyone has said illegals get the jobs because americans are too lazy to do them, and less skilled.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:45 AM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
You over simplfied it.
They didn't just demand the same rights as legals, they demand more. They demand a head of line pass with a no questions asked pass to a visa. They want past crimes forgiven and a clean slate all while flying a mexican flag. They demand that they not be forced to learn the common language of our land. They demand a lot.
We have racists on both sides of the fence. We have those who slander all illegals regardless of race or point of origin. And we have those who slander americans calling us lazy, greedy, inhumane and biggots. Nor because we single out any race, nor because we have ever used a racial slur. But because we feel our laws should be enforced.
For example Sassyone has said illegals get the jobs because americans are too lazy to do them, and less skilled.
tinman01, I was just replying to his comment about anyone saying any kind word about illegals hating their country. It makes about as much sense as calling everyone against illegal immigration racist.

Again, the illegal immigrants who make those demands have created an angry mob and have pissed off the millions of illegals who were trying to keep to themselves under the radar (and not making those demands). Maybe they should be thanked for bringing more attention to the subject through the outrage it has created.
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