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Old 09-10-2008, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,821,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
tinman01, I was just replying to his comment about anyone saying any kind word about illegals hating their country. It makes about as much sense as calling everyone against illegal immigration racist.

Again, the illegal immigrants who make those demands have created an angry mob and have pissed off the millions of illegals who were trying to keep to themselves under the radar (and not making those demands). Maybe they should be thanked for bringing more attention to the subject through the outrage it has created.
I think the reason many consider pro-illegals to also be anti-American, is because itís hard to fathom how people who truly love this country could condone anything as detrimental as massive illegal immigration. Pro-illegals also tend to reserve their compassion for illegal aliens, while refusing to have even a modicum of understanding and compassion for the suffering of legal citizens.

Furthermore, most pro-illegals are also open border proponents. How anyone can support having our borders open for criminals and terrorists to enter at will, simply defies logic; in particular, given the tragic events on 9/11.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:04 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,007,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I think the reason many consider pro-illegals to also be anti-American, is because itís hard to fathom how people who truly love this country could condone anything as detrimental as massive illegal immigration. Pro-illegals also tend to reserve their compassion for illegal aliens, while refusing to have even a modicum of understanding and compassion for the suffering of legal citizens.

Furthermore, most pro-illegals are also open border proponents. How anyone can support having our borders open for criminals and terrorists to enter at will, simply defies logic; in particular, given the tragic events on 9/11.
Well I'm not a proponent of open borders or condoning illegal immigration. Do my comments make me anti-American because I've shown more compassion for them than others here? Does showing compassion for one group of people automatically negate any compassion for another group of people?

I think the whole 'anti-American' accusation has become very popular these days, for a wide array of issues - and most of the time it's unwarranted and widely inappropriate. It's very similar to the way the 'communist' accusation was thrown around so freely back in the 80's, or the term 'witch' long before that.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:47 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Does showing compassion for one group of people automatically negate any compassion for another group of people?
Once again, "compassion", in and of itself, is ALWAYS good....however, in answer to the specific scenario you've outlined above: In an era of limited resources, with an increasingly 'tough' economy..in an era in which unskilled "grunt labor" is becoming more and more obsolete, and in a 'high-tech society' where even our OWN high-school dropouts really have no realistic chance of ever 'making it'..(because a 'hi tech society' demands an educated work force), then YES... if you consistently 'favor', promote, and 'beat the drum' for the cause of illegal immigrants...then you ARE, to some degree, doing so at the expense of the "locals"...(the resident legal American population).

We have LONG ago left the era in which our economy "needed" unskilled, poorly-educated 'bodies' to do the work of industry....now the question has become "can we FIND ROOM for these folks..can we 'squeeze them in', somehow?". Well, of course we CAN, up to a point..but only if we do so at the expense of our OWN 'disenfranchised' unskilled workers.

Remember, we've already 'made room' for probably 15 to 20 MILLION people who 'aren't supposed to be here'. How many MORE must we accomodate, if we want to avoid being called 'uncaring'..or 'racist'...or 'mean-spirited'?..
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,821,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
Well I'm not a proponent of open borders or condoning illegal immigration. Do my comments make me anti-American because I've shown more compassion for them than others here? Does showing compassion for one group of people automatically negate any compassion for another group of people?
You claim you are not pro-illegal immigration. Yet, you defend them. It is possible to feel compassion for illegal aliens, without condoning or justifying their behavior. I too feel compassion. I also feel compassion for a man who robs a bank out of sheer desperation to feed his family. While I can clearly empathize, I cannot defend. When one defends behavior, one also condones.
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,821,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Once again, "compassion", in and of itself, is ALWAYS good....however, in answer to the specific scenario you've outlined above: In an era of limited resources, with an increasingly 'tough' economy..in an era in which unskilled "grunt labor" is becoming more and more obsolete, and in a 'high-tech society' where even our OWN high-school dropouts really have no realistic chance of ever 'making it'..(because a 'hi tech society' demands an educated work force), then YES... if you consistently 'favor', promote, and 'beat the drum' for the cause of illegal immigrants...then you ARE, to some degree, doing so at the expense of the "locals"...(the resident legal American population).

We have LONG ago left the era in which our economy "needed" unskilled, poorly-educated 'bodies' to do the work of industry....now the question has become "can we FIND ROOM for these folks..can we 'squeeze them in', somehow?". Well, of course we CAN, up to a point..but only if we do so at the expense of our OWN 'disenfranchised' unskilled workers.

Remember, we've already 'made room' for probably 15 to 20 MILLION people who 'aren't supposed to be here'. How many MORE must we accomodate, if we want to avoid being called 'uncaring'..or 'racist'...or 'mean-spirited'?..
I couldn't agree more. Our generosity has become an unappreciated illegal alien entitlement.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
185 posts, read 319,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll address this to ANY poster, on any 'side' who cares to respond. Let me 'turn this around' just a bit, and look at it from a little different angle.

Let's take a hypothetical country..ANY country you care to name. That country has a basic 'way of life', some degree of a common culture, and many shared common traits and ideals.

Now bring in another group....ANY other group, a group somewhat different in ideals and outlook than the 'locals'. Have this 'new group' arrive in just a few decades, in the MULTIPLE MILLIONS. Let's say a large percentage of these new arrivals come illegally, without permission, and arrive telling the locals they'd "better get used to us", that they "really have nothing to say", that the whole situation is "out of your hands", and there's "nothing you can do to stop us". Don't worry about race or ethnicity or color..make it simply a matter of clashing values and cultures, and a group 'moving in' on another group.

HERE'S MY QUESTION: Can ANYONE envision the above scenario, in ANY context you want to, in ANY country you can name anywhere in the world...even an 'imaginary' country....and can you honestly say that this wouldn't cause MAJOR alarm in the 'local' population? Maybe SOME of the locals would be upset, would grumble, maybe be fearful or annoyed? I can't. In fact, I continue to believe that if this happened in MOST countries, it would result in violence, bloodshed, and very likely war.

This essentially is what's happening in the US, today, as we speak. What's the result? Some people are upset. Some are fearful and pessimistic. Some grumble, and a few say stupid, unkind things.

Sorry, but I just don't find this surprising. What's remarkable to me is not the 'racism and xenophobia' of US society, but its very rare and singular tolerance. What the "average Joe" here in the US is being asked to tolerate, accept, and accomodate today, FEW people in FEW countries would agree with. How many countries would sit by, smile, and give an 'open arms' greeting to literally MILLIONS of uninvited trespassers, and never say a word in protest? I don't know how many, but I'd be willing to bet it would be VERY few.

American 'intolerance', to the degree that it exists,wouldn't even be a 'blip' on the general scale of world cultures and nations. What DOES stand out is America's remarkable tolerance and openness. It puts us in a pretty small 'in-group' and I must say, several LIGHT-YEARS ahead of many of our loudest critics. Can anyone spell "H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y ?" It's a word that comes to mind whenever I hear about how 'xenophobic" and 'mean" we are.

By all means, lets continue to discuss American intolerance, racism, selfishness, hatred, and xenophobia. But if we do, PLEASE...let's keep it in context.
Excellent as usual macmeal.

If I may I would also like to add that we have been extremely forgiving of immigrants, legal and illegal for over 50 years going back to the "Immigration Reform Act of 1965."

Multiple amnesties and endless entitlements put in place along the way has emboldened the "new immigrants" (illegals) beyong any sense of reality. How much more are we supposed to forgive. When you give people something for nothing they always expect more.

What would Jesus do? He helps those who help themselves, and I don't mean help themselves to our coffers.

America's welfare base is exploding. We need people with education and skills. We have enough "stoop laborers" for an eternity! It would also help if the new arrivals showed a modicum of respect for our nation as in learning the language of the land for starters.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Lake Norman, North Carolina
1,213 posts, read 1,398,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r601020 View Post
Actually, it's just good propaganda. The best lies always have an element of truth.

Behind the Veil: America's Anti-immigration Network
Heidi Bierich
Southern Poverty Law Center

Q : Who is the "Southern Poverty Law Center"?
A : National Council of La Raza sure likes dropping their name a lot . . and they have a neat map on their website where you racists can find other racist groups to belong to. Tired of feeling alone? Want to find other racists like yourself? Southern Poverty Law Center can help you be part of a racist group. According to this map, California is a great place to go if you're a racist.

That la raza witch on Lou Dobbs one night threatened him with the Southern Poverty Law Center, "We're watching you . . we're counting your hate speech code words", etc. "I'll get you my pretty . . and you're little dog too!"

What a flake! Is economic parasite a code word? I use that one a lot.
The SPLC is a far left wing HATE GROUP that labels any halfway right wing group that calls for enforcement of our existing immigration laws as a hate group, while at the same time giving left wing hate groups, such as itself and LA RAZA, free reign.
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,637,375 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
tinman01, I was just replying to his comment about anyone saying any kind word about illegals hating their country. It makes about as much sense as calling everyone against illegal immigration racist.

Again, the illegal immigrants who make those demands have created an angry mob and have pissed off the millions of illegals who were trying to keep to themselves under the radar (and not making those demands). Maybe they should be thanked for bringing more attention to the subject through the outrage it has created.
And you are correct.

Prior to those boneheads flying the Mexican, etc. flag at those ill advised illegal immigrants 'rights' rallies 2 years ago-------------I, to was ambivalent about them.

Not any more...............I am one of those 'angry mob' people now.
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,821,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And you are correct.

Prior to those boneheads flying the Mexican, etc. flag at those ill advised illegal immigrants 'rights' rallies 2 years ago-------------I, to was ambivalent about them.

Not any more...............I am one of those 'angry mob' people now.
The same here. Those rallies opened many eyes.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:29 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The same here. Those rallies opened many eyes.
That HAS to go down as one of the all-time WORST "PR" moves in recent decades, bar NONE. I actually knew a number of very nice, very tolerant sensitive souls, VERY much ready to give every benefit of the doubt to illegals, who got SO UPSET at these several "flag" incidents that they simply refused to discuss the matter...at ALL. (One guy, a church deacon with whom I worked, I swear was moved nearly to tears..he was SO disgusted with that 'display'..It was as if 'his' illegals had PERSONALLY let him down. It remained a 'sore subject' with him for weeks.).

I DO remember at the time, seeing this on our local news, remarking to my wife that, "It's almost like the Ku Klux Klan orchestrated this". One of the truly "monumental" cases I can remember of a group 'shooting itself in the foot'....any sympathy they MAY have had, evaporated in those few 'stunts', as far as many 'concerned' Americans felt.
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