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Old 09-10-2008, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
That HAS to go down as one of the all-time WORST "PR" moves in recent decades, bar NONE. I actually knew a number of very nice, very tolerant sensitive souls, VERY much ready to give every benefit of the doubt to illegals, who got SO UPSET at these several "flag" incidents that they simply refused to discuss the matter...at ALL. (One guy, a church deacon with whom I worked, I swear was moved nearly to tears..he was SO disgusted with that 'display'..It was as if 'his' illegals had PERSONALLY let him down. It remained a 'sore subject' with him for weeks.).

I DO remember at the time, seeing this on our local news, remarking to my wife that, "It's almost like the Ku Klux Klan orchestrated this". One of the truly "monumental" cases I can remember of a group 'shooting itself in the foot'....any sympathy they MAY have had, evaporated in those few 'stunts', as far as many 'concerned' Americans felt.
As you stated............and, virtually every PR attempt by the pro illegal/amnesty crowd has backfired ever since.


Ain't Karma a........!
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:47 AM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,263 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You claim you are not pro-illegal immigration. Yet, you defend them. It is possible to feel compassion for illegal aliens, without condoning or justifying their behavior. I too feel compassion. I also feel compassion for a man who robs a bank out of sheer desperation to feed his family. While I can clearly empathize, I cannot defend. When one defends behavior, one also condones.
You see, that's where I think I'm being misunderstood here. I'm showing empathy while saying they broke an immigration law. I never said that it was okay that they broke the law, just that I can understand why many of them do it. I'm not saying they are innocent. Some bank robbers do it to get rich, others do it to survive. You can usually show compassion for one and not the other without ever condoning the act itself.

I've said time and time again that I don't believe we should open our borders. That businesses should be held more accountable. That our government isn't doing its job. And yet, since I empathize, I am defending or condoning?

The biggest point I've tried to get across this whole time is that not all of them are making the demands that have outraged so many. Not all of them agreed with the rallies that took place with the Mexican flags flying (which was simply a stupid thing to do in my opinion). Not all of them feel entitled. Not all of them fit the same profile, aside from the fact that they crossed illegally. Not all of them deserve compassion. But they are not all one person. That's all I've been saying this whole time. These are human beings, and not all of them deserve the same level of outrage directed towards them. The acts of some of them have brought anger upon the entire group and people see them all as being the same when they're not.

I am not pro-illegal just because I challenge the majority here. I can ask the pro-illegals a few challenging questions as well and would probably be labeled a racist by some. Why can't a person challenge beliefs on both sides of the debate without being accused as being part of the problem?
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Oregon
1,169 posts, read 3,302,702 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll address this to ANY poster, on any 'side' who cares to respond. Let me 'turn this around' just a bit, and look at it from a little different angle.

Let's take a hypothetical country..ANY country you care to name. That country has a basic 'way of life', some degree of a common culture, and many shared common traits and ideals.

Now bring in another group....ANY other group, a group somewhat different in ideals and outlook than the 'locals'. Have this 'new group' arrive in just a few decades, in the MULTIPLE MILLIONS. Let's say a large percentage of these new arrivals come illegally, without permission, and arrive telling the locals they'd "better get used to us", that they "really have nothing to say", that the whole situation is "out of your hands", and there's "nothing you can do to stop us". Don't worry about race or ethnicity or color..make it simply a matter of clashing values and cultures, and a group 'moving in' on another group.

HERE'S MY QUESTION: Can ANYONE envision the above scenario, in ANY context you want to, in ANY country you can name anywhere in the world...even an 'imaginary' country....and can you honestly say that this wouldn't cause MAJOR alarm in the 'local' population? Maybe SOME of the locals would be upset, would grumble, maybe be fearful or annoyed? I can't. In fact, I continue to believe that if this happened in MOST countries, it would result in violence, bloodshed, and very likely war.

This essentially is what's happening in the US, today, as we speak. What's the result? Some people are upset. Some are fearful and pessimistic. Some grumble, and a few say stupid, unkind things.

Sorry, but I just don't find this surprising. What's remarkable to me is not the 'racism and xenophobia' of US society, but its very rare and singular tolerance. What the "average Joe" here in the US is being asked to tolerate, accept, and accomodate today, FEW people in FEW countries would agree with. How many countries would sit by, smile, and give an 'open arms' greeting to literally MILLIONS of uninvited trespassers, and never say a word in protest? I don't know how many, but I'd be willing to bet it would be VERY few.

American 'intolerance', to the degree that it exists,wouldn't even be a 'blip' on the general scale of world cultures and nations. What DOES stand out is America's remarkable tolerance and openness. It puts us in a pretty small 'in-group' and I must say, several LIGHT-YEARS ahead of many of our loudest critics. Can anyone spell "H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y ?" It's a word that comes to mind whenever I hear about how 'xenophobic" and 'mean" we are.

By all means, lets continue to discuss American intolerance, racism, selfishness, hatred, and xenophobia. But if we do, PLEASE...let's keep it in context.

That is a great post. I can't think of anything to add. It sums it up so well. Thanks!
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:19 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,044,409 times
Reputation: 17688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
You see, that's where I think I'm being misunderstood here. I'm showing empathy while saying they broke an immigration law. I never said that it was okay that they broke the law, just that I can understand why many of them do it. I'm not saying they are innocent. Some bank robbers do it to get rich, others do it to survive. You can usually show compassion for one and not the other without ever condoning the act itself.

I've said time and time again that I don't believe we should open our borders. That businesses should be held more accountable. That our government isn't doing its job. And yet, since I empathize, I am defending or condoning?

The biggest point I've tried to get across this whole time is that not all of them are making the demands that have outraged so many. Not all of them agreed with the rallies that took place with the Mexican flags flying (which was simply a stupid thing to do in my opinion). Not all of them feel entitled. Not all of them fit the same profile, aside from the fact that they crossed illegally. Not all of them deserve compassion. But they are not all one person. That's all I've been saying this whole time. These are human beings, and not all of them deserve the same level of outrage directed towards them. The acts of some of them have brought anger upon the entire group and people see them all as being the same when they're not.

I am not pro-illegal just because I challenge the majority here. I can ask the pro-illegals a few challenging questions as well and would probably be labeled a racist by some. Why can't a person challenge beliefs on both sides of the debate without being accused as being part of the problem?
Years ago I felt as you seem to appear now. The problem is there is no real middle ground on this now. I can't enter a house with a case worker and find out which ones are working, which ones have extensive rap sheets or are bleeding the system then pick and choose who gets to stay, work and use Social Services or pay taxes. The reality is that the majority are abusing the US one way or another. Cold hard fact! How many are not using US ER rooms, freeways, schools, wic office or other services paid for by tax payers meant for Americans? I mean really, how many? How many are not getting paid under the table and sending money out of the Country? How many aren't using a fake SS#?

Once I realized what is really going on my compassion tank went dry. Sorry.
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas
185 posts, read 319,512 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
You see, that's where I think I'm being misunderstood here. I'm showing empathy while saying they broke an immigration law. I never said that it was okay that they broke the law, just that I can understand why many of them do it. I'm not saying they are innocent. Some bank robbers do it to get rich, others do it to survive. You can usually show compassion for one and not the other without ever condoning the act itself.

I've said time and time again that I don't believe we should open our borders. That businesses should be held more accountable. That our government isn't doing its job. And yet, since I empathize, I am defending or condoning?

The biggest point I've tried to get across this whole time is that not all of them are making the demands that have outraged so many. Not all of them agreed with the rallies that took place with the Mexican flags flying (which was simply a stupid thing to do in my opinion). Not all of them feel entitled. Not all of them fit the same profile, aside from the fact that they crossed illegally. Not all of them deserve compassion. But they are not all one person. That's all I've been saying this whole time. These are human beings, and not all of them deserve the same level of outrage directed towards them. The acts of some of them have brought anger upon the entire group and people see them all as being the same when they're not.

I am not pro-illegal just because I challenge the majority here. I can ask the pro-illegals a few challenging questions as well and would probably be labeled a racist by some. Why can't a person challenge beliefs on both sides of the debate without being accused as being part of the problem?
Some of the 5,000-10,000 that cross the border illegally every day are gentle, kind, hardworking people. They range from those decent ones to drug dealing, murderous thugs.

A couple of things the good and the bad have in common is the lack of respect for America and itls citizens by not following the proper channels to come here legally. Once here the good and the bad have no identification, no way of knowing who they are, where they're going, what they're doing. We don't know who is good or bad.

Virtually all of them, including the somewhat good ones will either forge I.D. or steal it from an American citizen.

American children dream of becoming a doctor, teacher, fireman, pilot, etc. Mexicans feel it's their birthright to steal their way across the border when they come of age. This has been going on for decades now and is a societal way of thinking. This mindset has to be changed by sealing the border, removing all entitlements and enforcing the laws. It's beyond time to send the message that you cannot come here illegally.

How is Mexico ever supposed to become a decent place for it's people when tens of millions of it's able bodied citizens flee their country instead of fighting for it?
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
You see, that's where I think I'm being misunderstood here. I'm showing empathy while saying they broke an immigration law. I never said that it was okay that they broke the law, just that I can understand why many of them do it. I'm not saying they are innocent. Some bank robbers do it to get rich, others do it to survive. You can usually show compassion for one and not the other without ever condoning the act itself.

I've said time and time again that I don't believe we should open our borders. That businesses should be held more accountable. That our government isn't doing its job. And yet, since I empathize, I am defending or condoning?

The biggest point I've tried to get across this whole time is that not all of them are making the demands that have outraged so many. Not all of them agreed with the rallies that took place with the Mexican flags flying (which was simply a stupid thing to do in my opinion). Not all of them feel entitled. Not all of them fit the same profile, aside from the fact that they crossed illegally. Not all of them deserve compassion. But they are not all one person. That's all I've been saying this whole time. These are human beings, and not all of them deserve the same level of outrage directed towards them. The acts of some of them have brought anger upon the entire group and people see them all as being the same when they're not.

I am not pro-illegal just because I challenge the majority here. I can ask the pro-illegals a few challenging questions as well and would probably be labeled a racist by some. Why can't a person challenge beliefs on both sides of the debate without being accused as being part of the problem?
I concur; they are not ALL the same. Some do in fact simply work to feed their families, without ever committing a single act of violence. Many did not participate in the massive foreign flag-waving debacle. Nor do they ALL feel entitled and make demands. In that respect, no, they are not ALL the same.

However, they are ALL here illegally. Those employed are ALL either using a stolen SSN, forged documents, or working under the table -- ALL in violation of our immigration, criminal and IRS laws.

Furthermore, their children are ALL attending our schools courtesy of U.S. taxpayers -- further burdening an already financially strapped public school system. When they choose to procreate, they are ALL availing themselves of tax-funded prenatal/postnatal care. As an added bonus, their new U.S. citizen baby qualifies them to receive additional tax-funded benefits in the form of WIC, welfare, and subsidized housing………just to name a few.

There are many ways in which they differ. However, at the end of the day, they are still ALL flagrantly violating our laws, and taking advantage of the generosity of U.S. taxpayers.

If we begin to enforce our laws on the basis of our level of compassion for the perpetrators of crime, we can only expect the ultimate result……..anarchy. If our laws are disrespected, and our citizens are disrespected, who and what in this country do illegal aliens respect? Why should those with no respect for us, deserve our respect? More importantly, why should we feel compassion for those who obviously realize they are depressing wages, displacing workers, and overburdening a struggling economy? Please don’t tell me that most illegals do not understand the impact they have had on this country, because they most assuredly do. The simple truth is, they simply don’t care.

There may exist a small percentage who do not feel entitled, do not make demands, and do in fact appreciate the opportunities and benefits this country has generously afforded them. It still doesn’t change the fact that we as a nation cannot continue to provide for millions of non-citizens, and simultaneously care for our own struggling masses.
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Old 09-12-2008, 10:15 AM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,263 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Please don’t tell me that most illegals do not understand the impact they have had on this country, because they most assuredly do. The simple truth is, they simply don’t care.
I don't know that most do not understand the negative impact they're having on our system. It would be easy to assume that because of all the information that we have available to us. But some of the people I've talked to (both citizens and illegals) seem to think that the economic impact ends up being a wash due to the decreased costs of labor, and some even think there is a positive impact on our economy.

The assumption is that the cheaper labor keeps the cost of goods lower than they would otherwise be. And the fraudulent use of social security numbers is not always a case of identity theft in the sense that those numbers belong to a living citizen. Some are simply fake numbers, and some belong to people who had passed on long ago. Not that any of this makes what they're doing right. I'm just passing on information that I've come across.

Whether these beliefs have any merit to them or not, that's what some people tend to believe (citizens and illegals) - probably due to the lack of information they have. What the percentage is of those illegals who understand the negative impact and those who do not (and those who do not care), I really have no idea and have no way of basing an assumption on it. Nor do I think anyone here can make an accurate guess either. To say it's the majority is nothing more than a guess.

Not that it makes a difference one way or the other really. Just pointing it out. I happen to believe that it is having a negative effect on our economy and on our tax payers. I still don't know the extent of the impact, but there seems to be more data suggesting it's quite a big expense than there is suggesting otherwise.
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Old 09-12-2008, 10:54 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,044,409 times
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Since I live in a border town I can easily draw my own conclusions. If I ride my bike near a Linda Vista grocery store I am taking my life into my own hands as the vehicles whipping into and out of it are being driven by day laborers looking for work loitering by the McDonalds. Since they are here illegally I can deduce that the driver doesn't have a DL or insurance. A couple of the hospitals further South of me closed and now my local ER is packed with IIs. My kid's school has a huge percentage of kids that have parents that cannot speak English. Most of the time we never even see the parents just an older sibling that rides the bus with them from S of the 8. Again, I can deduce that they are IIs. At the parent teacher conferences an older child acts as an interpreter for the parent. The one program I was able to use as a tax payer was halted because the school had already reached max funding for the free school lunch program. So now I get to pay the Y for it and guess what? The people that got the free lunch program get the same deal with the Y based on the "income" they prove they don't earn. There are a lot of gardeners and I'd wage yet another safe bet that it's cash under the table.

These are only a couple of examples but the city of San Diego is being heavily impacted by IIs. No one I know is hiring them so I don't see any benefit only burden. A HUGE burden.
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Old 09-12-2008, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludachris View Post
But some of the people I've talked to (both citizens and illegals) seem to think that the economic impact ends up being a wash due to the decreased costs of labor, and some even think there is a positive impact on our economy.

The assumption is that the cheaper labor keeps the cost of goods lower than they would otherwise be.

Whether these beliefs have any merit to them or not, that's what some people tend to believe (citizens and illegals) - probably due to the lack of information they have.
One of the most propagated pro-illegal myths is that lower labor costs associated with illegal immigration benefits U.S. citizens. Ask yourself -- have food, hotel, restaurant, housing, landscaping prices (or any industry dominated by illegals) decreased or increased through the years? Perhaps in your area all of these industries have consistently lowered their prices. However, in my area (East Coast) prices in every category continue to skyrocket.

The savings generated from cheap illegal labor only benefit employers. Yes, their overhead is lower -- lower wages, few taxes, no required insurance, no employee benefits -- but those savings are not shared with consumers. Those profits are used to line their pockets, and those of lobbyists and government officials. To add insult to injury, U.S. taxpayers are burdened with subsidizing their cheap illegal workforce.

Last edited by Benicar; 09-12-2008 at 11:57 AM..
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:34 PM
 
Location: CO
1,599 posts, read 3,006,263 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
One of the most propagated pro-illegal myths is that lower labor costs associated with illegal immigration benefits U.S. citizens. Ask yourself -- have food, hotel, restaurant, housing, landscaping prices (or any industry dominated by illegals) decreased or increased through the years? Perhaps in your area all of these industries have consistently lowered their prices. However, in my area (East Coast) prices in every category continue to skyrocket.

Yes, their overhead is lower -- lower wages, few taxes, no required insurance, no employee benefits -- but those savings are not shared with consumers. Those profits are used to line their pockets, and those of lobbyists and government officials. To add insult to injury, U.S. taxpayers are burdened with subsidizing their cheap illegal workforce.
I wouldn't say that prices in my area have decreased. Then again, it's not like illegals all came here all at once, causing prices to drop from one day to the next. But it could very well have kept prices from going up more than they have. Americans tend to favor services that are less expensive. If jobs are bid on based on the costs that will have to be paid to employees, which a good number of them are in labor industries, then the savings are being passed on to the consumer. Some employers are pocketing the extra savings from the cheap labor, but others depend on offering a cheaper service in order to get more jobs lined up.

This is going to be true in some instances in various competitive markets, certainly not all. And that's part of why the "myth" is probably propagated as much as it is. Where is the information that supports the idea that the savings are not shared with consumer?

Fuel costs are driving up prices on all products and most services right now. I just question how much MORE expensive things MIGHT be without cheap labor.
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