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Old 09-16-2008, 01:03 PM
 
635 posts, read 1,559,714 times
Reputation: 111

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He must be for Compassionate Conservatism.

 
Old 09-16-2008, 01:33 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,034,103 times
Reputation: 17687
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
I have a question. A very easy question, as a matter of fact. We already know that amnesty/regularization/a path to citizenship will provide many benefits to illegals. Benefits such as complete access to the full smorgasbord of benefits available to US citizens, the ability to bring over additional family members from the home country, the right to vote and influence US policy, and so on. I am sure others can add to this list. Since illegal aliens will benefit greatly from amnesty by whatever name you want to call it, what specific benefits will American citizens gain from this? You see, any time two parties enter into a deal, there has to be something in it for both of them. If it is a loser for one of the parties, why should they agree to it? Once again, what specific benefits will American citizens get from granting amnesty to millions of illegals?

Stay on subject. I do not care if in your opinion we have to grant them amnesty because there is NO WAY OUT. Nor do I care that you think it is the right thing to do. You are the one advocating amnesty. Kindly tell me how this will benefit the average American citizen. And you do realize that once they are 'legal' they are no longer going to be willing to work for substandard wages. So how is this regularization of millions of illegal aliens going to benefit me, my friends, my neighbors and my relatives?
Ike has already proved that mass self-deportation is possible. With the current raids on workplace that we have been doing I think the Feds are on the right track to start another. Now just fast track it!
 
Old 09-16-2008, 01:50 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Ike has already proved that mass self-deportation is possible. With the current raids on workplace that we have been doing I think the Feds are on the right track to start another. Now just fast track it!
I agree that attrition through enforcement is a viable solution. As jobs and benefits are cut off, they will leave on their own.
There are those who support the amnesty/ regularization route, yet never state the ways this would benefit US citizens. I would like to hear what it is that the average American citizen would gain if millions of illegal aliens were granted amnesty.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 01:53 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by r601020 View Post
Accusing fact of being an opinion is a quagmire of nonsense.

This type of spew adds more concern illegal aliens and their supporters (like you) are mentally disconnected from reality, if not psychologically disturbed.

As for convincing the Federal Government . . this too is a bass-akwards assessment on your part, as the law, and enforcement, sees this criminal activity exactly for what it is.
It is the US government that determines illegal entry to be an administrative infraction. . They could pursue it as criminal but choose not to do so. Go argue with them.

Quote:
I think you just made my ignore list.
Promise?....
 
Old 09-16-2008, 01:55 PM
 
3,859 posts, read 9,170,984 times
Reputation: 2728
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
I agree that attrition through enforcement is a viable solution. As jobs and benefits are cut off, they will leave on their own.
There are those who support the amnesty/ regularization route, yet never state the ways this would benefit US citizens. I would like to hear what it is that the average American citizen would gain if millions of illegal aliens were granted amnesty.



I would also like to hear that andreabeth- I am afraid the pro-amnesty folks are avoiding answering you because the answer is we will gain nothing-nothing positive that is.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 02:25 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
I have a question. A very easy question, as a matter of fact. We already know that amnesty/regularization/a path to citizenship will provide many benefits to illegals. Benefits such as complete access to the full smorgasbord of benefits available to US citizens, the ability to bring over additional family members from the home country, the right to vote and influence US policy, and so on. I am sure others can add to this list. Since illegal aliens will benefit greatly from amnesty by whatever name you want to call it, what specific benefits will American citizens gain from this? You see, any time two parties enter into a deal, there has to be something in it for both of them. If it is a loser for one of the parties, why should they agree to it? Once again, what specific benefits will American citizens get from granting amnesty to millions of illegals?
Well mostly the US citizen has received the benefits of the illegals in terms of the cost of services and labor. Now we get to pay the piper for those reduced costs. Note that benefits to the immigrants are the subject of negotiation and may take many years to come into play. We do not, for instance, provide all services to newly arrived legal immigrants.

Other than that you get into the argument as to whether immigrants are cost effective or not. The economists believe that they are in the long term...that is that the value contributed by the immigrants and their families over the next generations provide more revenue than cost. On the down side the illegals are generally from low socio-economic class and therefore likely to have a lesser payoff. Then again they are here and established and have American children.

So I guess on balance we will likely never know. Be a fun Phd thesis for some economics graduate student in 2050.

Quote:
Stay on subject. I do not care if in your opinion we have to grant them amnesty because there is NO WAY OUT. Nor do I care that you think it is the right thing to do. You are the one advocating amnesty. Kindly tell me how this will benefit the average American citizen. And you do realize that once they are 'legal' they are no longer going to be willing to work for substandard wages. So how is this regularization of millions of illegal aliens going to benefit me, my friends, my neighbors and my relatives?
You really need a lesson in civility. I could not care less about the right thing to do. These people have no inherent right to a break. Practically however they are here and are not practically removable. Many have US citizen children. So we need to bring them into the fold somehow. Left alone the thing will fester forever. And the numbers will again increase when the economy turns around.

I would also point out that, in vast areas, the illegals have long since stopped accepting sub-standard wages. Hispanics, including the illegals, quite dominate the residental construction industry in Las Vegas and other industries such as landscaping and house cleaning. Even the day laborers at Lowes and Home Depot get $12 to $15 an hour.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 03:08 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post


You really need a lesson in civility. I could not care less about the right thing to do. These people have no inherent right to a break. Practically however they are here and are not practically removable. Many have US citizen children. So we need to bring them into the fold somehow. Left alone the thing will fester forever. And the numbers will again increase when the economy turns around.
Without wanting to get into a pointless 'mud-slinger' here, Capt., I'll only 'call you out' on one minor point...you assert that "Left alone, the thing will fester forever"... no doubt. But I maintain that "the thing" is going to 'fester forever' REGARDLESS of what we do or do not do....in fact, one more amnesty (by whatever name it's called) COULD result in enough public outrage that we may LONG for a mere 'festering'. It MAY not 'fester', it may just 'explode'. I think the time has long ago passed when we can just 'sweep this away'. We've HAD amnesties in the past..each time, intended to be 'just this ONCE'. Few of us are willing to 'buy into' that line yet again.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 04:19 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Without wanting to get into a pointless 'mud-slinger' here, Capt., I'll only 'call you out' on one minor point...you assert that "Left alone, the thing will fester forever"... no doubt. But I maintain that "the thing" is going to 'fester forever' REGARDLESS of what we do or do not do....in fact, one more amnesty (by whatever name it's called) COULD result in enough public outrage that we may LONG for a mere 'festering'. It MAY not 'fester', it may just 'explode'. I think the time has long ago passed when we can just 'sweep this away'. We've HAD amnesties in the past..each time, intended to be 'just this ONCE'. Few of us are willing to 'buy into' that line yet again.
Sorry that is simply untrue. It just is not that sort of issue. We are in a Presidental Campaign the illustrates the point. Neither candidate takes an anti view. That is because both judge it to be an issue with as much risk as reward. It has historically raised only small passions. There are some on both sides who care a whole lot...but the vast mass of the populaition in the middle is not interested.

Sure vast numbers oppose illegal immigration...Hell I do too. But when it comes to lets deport them all...the illegals suddenly pick up majority support.

I often suggest, not seriously, that the issue will actually be settled by running out of the demographic in Mexico. You know...it may be true. One more good seven or eight year stint and we will exhaust that age group.

Maybe that is how it ends...no one left to come here.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 05:00 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Well mostly the US citizen has received the benefits of the illegals in terms of the cost of services and labor. Now we get to pay the piper for those reduced costs. Note that benefits to the immigrants are the subject of negotiation and may take many years to come into play. We do not, for instance, provide all services to newly arrived legal immigrants.
The illegal aliens have also received benefits during their time in the US, such as wages significantly higher than they would have been able to earn in their homeland, 'free' medical care, access to a clean water supply and a (mostly) safe food supply, education for their offspring and the other advantages of residing in a First World country. I'd say we are even. Studies that attempt to portray illegals in a positive light have never been able to show that, by the time all the smoke clears, they make at best a minimal positive contribution.

Quote:
Other than that you get into the argument as to whether immigrants are cost effective or not. The economists believe that they are in the long term...that is that the value contributed by the immigrants and their families over the next generations provide more revenue than cost. On the down side the illegals are generally from low socio-economic class and therefore likely to have a lesser payoff.
Legal immigrants are a net positive in the long term. I don't think anyone will dispute that. Legal immigrants will not be receiving amnesty under your hypothetical scenario. Illegal aliens will. And illegal aliens are overwhelmingly unskilled and the majority did not graduate from HS. We are not talking about someone who left school at the end of their junior year and could easily get a HS diploma by completing a GED program. If there is a likelihood of a 'lesser payoff' or a negative payoff, what is the point of doing this?

Quote:
Then again they are here and established and have American children.
So how does this entitle them to US citizenship? If a Goldman Sachs banker and his family live in London for 10 years, do you think the British government is going to grant them citizenship because they have been there for a long time and have established roots in London? If a US serviceman is stationed in Germany for 4 years, should he expect to be allowed to stay forever and be made a citizen at the end of his deployment? I I live illegally in Switzerland for 6 years, do you think the Swiss government would make me a citizen because I have been there for a long time? I don't think the Americans in any of these cases would get citizenship in those countries. If other countries are willing to say "No" to the 'we have been here for a long time' line, we should follow their examples and do the same.
As for the American children, their parents have placed them in this situation and their parents alone deserve the blame. The parents knew they were in the US illegally. They knew exactly what they were doing when they came here. Everyone feels bad for the kids who are caught in the middle, but that is no excuse to let the parents off the hook. If a parent has to go to jail for selling drugs, this will also be difficult for his children. He has to go anyhow. I don't think a judge will let him go because he has two children. That is how things work and the rules need to be applied fairly. We should not let the illegal parents off the hook because they have children unless we are also going to stop sending American parents to jail also.


Quote:
So I guess on balance we will likely never know. Be a fun Phd thesis for some economics graduate student in 2050.

You really need a lesson in civility. I could not care less about the right thing to do. These people have no inherent right to a break. Practically however they are here and are not practically removable. Many have US citizen children. So we need to bring them into the fold somehow. Left alone the thing will fester forever. And the numbers will again increase when the economy turns around.
Explain how amnesty is going to solve this problem. If we give this 12+ million citizenship, what do you intend to do about the next 20 million that show up? How are you going to prevent millions more from crossing the border to await the next serial amnesty? How are you planning to keep them out? Are you going to say that we also need to bring the next 20 million 'into the fold somehow' by giving them amnesty too? What is your agenda? Is it to have every impoverished person with no job skills from south of the border in the US? What is your end point? If this amnesty is given because they are here and not 'practically removable', what are you going to do about the next tsunami of illegal aliens that come to the US?

Quote:
I would also point out that, in vast areas, the illegals have long since stopped accepting sub-standard wages. Hispanics, including the illegals, quite dominate the residental construction industry in Las Vegas and other industries such as landscaping and house cleaning. Even the day laborers at Lowes and Home Depot get $12 to $15 an hour.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,361,805 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
You must not be an english speaker.
Such comments are totally unnecessary
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