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Old 09-16-2008, 05:12 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
Reputation: 3010

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Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
You must not be an english speaker. Google is not that hard...

regularizing - definition of regularizing by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

If I meant Amnesty I would say amnesty. GD does not understand that as he peers at the word through distorted glasses.
Uncalled for.

 
Old 09-16-2008, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,361,805 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
You really need a lesson in civility.
Actually, it is YOU who needs a total school year on / in civility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
I could not care less about the right thing to do.
And, we know this to be true.

I especially know, from personal experience, your statement to be true.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 05:24 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Sorry that is simply untrue. It just is not that sort of issue. We are in a Presidental Campaign the illustrates the point. Neither candidate takes an anti view. That is because both judge it to be an issue with as much risk as reward. It has historically raised only small passions. There are some on both sides who care a whole lot...but the vast mass of the populaition in the middle is not interested.

Sure vast numbers oppose illegal immigration...Hell I do too. But when it comes to lets deport them all...the illegals suddenly pick up majority support.

I often suggest, not seriously, that the issue will actually be settled by running out of the demographic in Mexico. You know...it may be true. One more good seven or eight year stint and we will exhaust that age group.

Maybe that is how it ends...no one left to come here.

So we should make no attempt to defend our nation, we should simply sit back and allow every poorly educated, unskilled Mexican who wants to live in the US to come in. After all, illegal immigrartion will end once they are all here!
If we allow Mexico to dump every last one of her impoverished citizens on
us, what is to prevent another country, say Honduras, from doing the same thing? Why not? When all the impoverished, unskilled Hondurans are here, maybe Bolivia can start sending us all their poor people.
What you are proposing is that we become the Flophouse to the World.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 05:44 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
The illegal aliens have also received benefits during their time in the US, such as wages significantly higher than they would have been able to earn in their homeland, 'free' medical care, access to a clean water supply and a (mostly) safe food supply, education for their offspring and the other advantages of residing in a First World country. I'd say we are even. Studies that attempt to portray illegals in a positive light have never been able to show that, by the time all the smoke clears, they make at best a minimal positive contribution.
They paid their dues in this sense. They provided vast savings to the US citizenry. Neither food nor water nor medical is substantially better than at home. They paid their taxes and earned their rights to such things as schooling. Mexico is a first world country. Most per capita numbers are quite similar to eastern europe or Russia. Certainly not as good as the US or Canada but much better than third world. You reason as does the "ugly American".

Actually though I tend to agree that the contribution net/net is small.


Quote:
Legal immigrants are a net positive in the long term. I don't think anyone will dispute that. Legal immigrants will not be receiving amnesty under your hypothetical scenario. Illegal aliens will. And illegal aliens are overwhelmingly unskilled and the majority did not graduate from HS. We are not talking about someone who left school at the end of their junior year and could easily get a HS diploma by completing a GED program. If there is a likelihood of a 'lesser payoff' or a negative payoff, what is the point of doing this?
You misstate the "here with children" discussion. The claim is that they are vastly ahead of a fresh legal immigrant. They have housing, friends, family. They are embedded in the infrastructure they have jobs and some are reasonably entreprenaurial. The privilege of being on site a long time has given them benefits compared to a legal immigrant. It may well overcome much if not all of the advantage of a superior education.

The children issue is of a different sort. These children are Americans and will remain so. If forced with family to Mexico they will retain the right to return and will almost certainly do so on reaching majority. You really want to send a couple of million children to rural Mexico and then take them back at 18? I can see the development of a whole new underclass that we don't need.



Quote:
So how does this entitle them to US citizenship? If a Goldman Sachs banker and his family live in London for 10 years, do you think the British government is going to grant them citizenship because they have been there for a long time and have established roots in London? If a US serviceman is stationed in Germany for 4 years, should he expect to be allowed to stay forever and be made a citizen at the end of his deployment? I I live illegally in Switzerland for 6 years, do you think the Swiss government would make me a citizen because I have been there for a long time? I don't think the Americans in any of these cases would get citizenship in those countries. If other countries are willing to say "No" to the 'we have been here for a long time' line, we should follow their examples and do the same.
The argument does not hunt. If there were 6 million of you in England some accomodation would also certainly be worked out. In general the EU countries allow free motion between them. But again... I don't claim time gives privilege. I however claim children do as a practical matter.


Quote:
As for the American children, their parents have placed them in this situation and their parents alone deserve the blame. The parents knew they were in the US illegally. They knew exactly what they were doing when they came here. Everyone feels bad for the kids who are caught in the middle, but that is no excuse to let the parents off the hook. If a parent has to go to jail for selling drugs, this will also be difficult for his children. He has to go anyhow. I don't think a judge will let him go because he has two children. That is how things work and the rules need to be applied fairly. We should not let the illegal parents off the hook because they have children unless we are also going to stop sending American parents to jail also.
The Judge however will not send the two children to jail with the parent either. Again it is a practical matter. The children are going to come back and have a right to do so. In fact even if they stay in Mexico their children can come back if it is managed properly. So we establish a US citizen underclass if we send the children to Mexico. They will likely do very poorly there. When they come of age they come back. You don't see a problem with that?



Quote:
Explain how amnesty is going to solve this problem. If we give this 12+ million citizenship, what do you intend to do about the next 20 million that show up? How are you going to prevent millions more from crossing the border to await the next serial amnesty? How are you planning to keep them out? Are you going to say that we also need to bring the next 20 million 'into the fold somehow' by giving them amnesty too? What is your agenda? Is it to have every impoverished person with no job skills from south of the border in the US? What is your end point? If this amnesty is given because they are here and not 'practically removable', what are you going to do about the next tsunami of illegal aliens that come to the US?
The problem is not solvable at 12 million. It may not be solved at 500,000 either. Got a lot better shot though. and it may well be that we do the same thing we did last time. Do an amnesty and then ignore the problem. If we do that we will get the same outcome.

It may well turn out that the solution is to exhaust the supply. I hope not but that is where we are headed right now. Would it not make more sense to fix it rather than let it rip? I have suggested more than once that the most effective technique might well be to run a Marshall Plan into rural Mexico and make living there much more desirable. Probably the most effective thing we could do in terms of bang for the buck...

To rail about the 12 million may make a segment feel good...but it does not change the facts. We are not going to deport them. And if we don't do something else it will simple fester more.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 05:50 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
Actually, it is YOU who needs a total school year on / in civility.



And, we know this to be true.

I especially know, from personal experience, your statement to be true.

Back to your cave GD. Knock off the personal stuff and say something on subject.

I know you will be wrong but you are opinionated.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 05:51 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,402,860 times
Reputation: 47450
if obama does not like it that is good. as to hate, i have hate in me towards anything illegal.

Last edited by Huckleberry3911948; 09-16-2008 at 06:03 PM..
 
Old 09-16-2008, 05:57 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 32,484,948 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
So we should make no attempt to defend our nation, we should simply sit back and allow every poorly educated, unskilled Mexican who wants to live in the US to come in. After all, illegal immigrartion will end once they are all here!
If we allow Mexico to dump every last one of her impoverished citizens on
us, what is to prevent another country, say Honduras, from doing the same thing? Why not? When all the impoverished, unskilled Hondurans are here, maybe Bolivia can start sending us all their poor people.
What you are proposing is that we become the Flophouse to the World.

YOu continue to hear what you wish I say...not what I say.

I point out that the will and means to do what you want is not present. And you therefore claim I want it that way. What I want is for the country to do what it should have in the late 80s. But that did not happen. What I now want is to again cut the problem down to something that can be handled and handle it. Could we again screw it up? Of course. Likely will from our past performance.

Don't throw the "other" sources in. That is simply a different level of problem. It is Mexico that has the large contiguous border, the suitable population and the present support population in the US. There is no other comparable situation.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,361,805 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Back to your cave GD. Knock off the personal stuff and say something on subject.
Nope - as long as you continue your personal attacks against other posters - I'm going to ride you =

And, you lack civility - and remember - I have seen your total lack of civility in person -
 
Old 09-16-2008, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Back to your cave GD. Knock off the personal stuff and say something on subject.

I know you will be wrong but you are opinionated.
Pot kettle black.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 06:26 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
YOu continue to hear what you wish I say...not what I say.

I point out that the will and means to do what you want is not present. And you therefore claim I want it that way. What I want is for the country to do what it should have in the late 80s. But that did not happen. What I now want is to again cut the problem down to something that can be handled and handle it. Could we again screw it up? Of course. Likely will from our past performance.

Don't throw the "other" sources in. That is simply a different level of problem. It is Mexico that has the large contiguous border, the suitable population and the present support population in the US. There is no other comparable situation.
Granting amnesty to the 12+ million here will solve nothing if an influx of illegal aliens is allowed to continue.
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