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Old 09-20-2008, 09:34 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,033,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Fair enough...but what situation, anywhere, can be compared with the one we have here today? Frankly, I can't think of many. We have upwards of 20 million people here, illegally...about one tenth of a pretty large country...and we can't even discuss it without "instant outrage". And some people have "concern about growing resentment"? Oh, really? I suppose there WOULD be growing resentment, given these facts....absolutely. Could this grow into hate? I sure hope not...and not among MOST people, I'm sure..but really, given the above situation, what would be the EXPECTED result? Smiles? Hugs? Let's be realistic here for a moment.

As I've said before, in MANY societies, this situation would lead to violence and bloodshed...Here?.....some detect a 'growing resentment'....OK. Is that GOOD? Of course not.. But is it SURPRISING? I hardly think so. It would be surprising if there WASN'T resentment.

I actually believe both you and amc on this one....
I understand amcs concern over individual illegals being caught up in a potential violent hailstorm. Now, the illegal did invite this by coming here illegally, and by allowing self serving groups like laraza and mecha to stir the **** storm, if you will pardon my french

You know, I get very frustrated and yes, even angry about illegal immigration and our representatives lack of initiative to prevent it, the employers who benefit from it, and yeah -- the illegals themselves when they have the audacity to 'demand' rights and benefits.
But at the same time, when I see illegals (and I am going to go out on a limb here, and assume that people who speak only spanish and have the mexican flag draped across the front of their car just may be illegal) out in state parks, being with their families and in one case having a wedding...they seem like nice people. How can I hate a little girl? How can I hate on young men playing soccer in a state park? (but what is up with those haircuts where the head is shaved but just a little bit of hair hangs over the forehead?!) The answer is I can't, and I don't. And if it were just a few hundred or a few thousand....but its not. It's millions, and if we give amnesty to the 12+ million that are already here, well what is to stop the next 12+ million? Nothing. We will have set another precedence of accepting illegality that Reagan started.
What can I tell you Macmeal? Individually, probably very nice people for the most part. And I hope like hell that they are never physically hurt by angry americans. But the big picture tells me that they are bad for this country in many different ways, and they simply have to go. Add to that our current economy which I believe will take some plunges before we start real recovery....it is a recipe for disaster.
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:45 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
........
The thing about this debate, is that people are just pissed off. Theyre pissed off because their taxes are a little higher, or theyre seeing a lot of Spanish, or they read articles that show pictures of day workers flipping off the camera. They get so pissed off, they have to google some more stuff to be pissed off about. And when thats not enough, they got to google some stuff about Mexico to be pissed off about.

Its crazy.
My husband and I are both trained to work in the healthcare field. He is still working, I am retired. Trust me, we both have very legitimate grounds for being angry about the abuse of the US healthcare system by illegal aliens.
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,173,806 times
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I agree with you, camping, and I've known and worked with some mighty fine men who were illegals from Mexico. On a personal level, I wanted to find a way to let them stay, but on a national level I had NO CHOICE but to turn them in to ICE. The minute we start making exceptions, EVERYONE is an exception.

"Too bad, so sad, you gotta go, adios."
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:59 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I actually believe both you and amc on this one....
I understand amcs concern over individual illegals being caught up in a potential violent hailstorm. Now, the illegal did invite this by coming here illegally, and by allowing self serving groups like laraza and mecha to stir the **** storm, if you will pardon my french

You know, I get very frustrated and yes, even angry about illegal immigration and our representatives lack of initiative to prevent it, the employers who benefit from it, and yeah -- the illegals themselves when they have the audacity to 'demand' rights and benefits.
But at the same time, when I see illegals (and I am going to go out on a limb here, and assume that people who speak only spanish and have the mexican flag draped across the front of their car just may be illegal) out in state parks, being with their families and in one case having a wedding...they seem like nice people. How can I hate a little girl? How can I hate on young men playing soccer in a state park? (but what is up with those haircuts where the head is shaved but just a little bit of hair hangs over the forehead?!) The answer is I can't, and I don't. And if it were just a few hundred or a few thousand....but its not. It's millions, and if we give amnesty to the 12+ million that are already here, well what is to stop the next 12+ million? Nothing. We will have set another precedence of accepting illegality that Reagan started.
What can I tell you Macmeal? Individually, probably very nice people for the most part. And I hope like hell that they are never physically hurt by angry americans. But the big picture tells me that they are bad for this country in many different ways, and they simply have to go. Add to that our current economy which I believe will take some plunges before we start real recovery....it is a recipe for disaster.
I have known MANY illegals, for decades, and can assure you indeed that they are, for the most part "nice people". Their niceness isn't what's in question here, it's our ability as a nation, and as an economy, to continue to absorb this situation forever. What infuriates me isn't the individual illegals I've known and liked....it's the absolute close-minded BS on this forum. It's simply incredible. Circular argument follows circular argument after circular argument, and we're told we MUST close the border, but we must do it in a way that's agreeble to those wishing to continue to CROSS it....all the while, knowing full well that the reason we DON'T close the border is because it would provoke such instant outrage that no politician will touch it. Then we're scolded for being "possibly resentful". THEN we're told our resentment is misplaced, because these folks are really coming here for OUR benefit. Then we're told it's "too late", because we SHOULD have done something earlier. When we mention our many previous amnesties, we're accused of being 'sarcastic', and that THOSE amnesties were 'different'...and they didn't work, because we didn't make them 'stick'. THEN when we propose taking action NOW, that WILL 'stick', we're called "hateful".

And when all else fails, we're called 'racists'. Somehow, in the midst of all this, resentment CAN crop up...yep.
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:08 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,033,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I have known MANY illegals, for decades, and can assure you indeed that they are, for the most part "nice people". Their niceness isn't what's in question here, it's our ability as a nation, and as an economy, to continue to absorb this situation forever. What infuriates me isn't the individual illegals I've known and liked....it's the absolute close-minded BS on this forum. It's simply incredible. Circular argument follows circular argument after circular argument, and we're told we MUST close the border, but we must do it in a way that's agreeble to those wishing to continue to CROSS it....all the while, knowing full well that the reason we DON'T close the border is because it would provoke such instant outrage that no politician will touch it. Then we're scolded for being "possibly resentful". THEN we're told our resentment is misplaced, because these folks are really coming here for OUR benefit. Then we're told it's "too late", because we SHOULD have done something earlier. When we mention our many previous amnesties, we're accused of being 'sarcastic', and that THOSE amnesties were 'different'...and they didn't work, because we didn't make them 'stick'. THEN when we propose taking action NOW, that WILL 'stick', we're called "hateful".

And when all else fails, we're called 'racists'. Somehow, in the midst of all this, resentment CAN crop up...yep.

I agree with you on every point, brother! Illegals would have been better served not putting their faith (and money) into laraza, mecha, lulac et al....Instead of learning english they learned that they were entitled not to. Instead of learning how to become a legal, they learned that people aren't illegal, only laws are. Instead of trying to become americans they learned everywhere there is a mexican there is a mexico.
In the end, for the security of our country they must be deported.
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:19 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I agree with you on every point, brother! Illegals would have been better served not putting their faith (and money) into laraza, mecha, lulac et al....Instead of learning english they learned that they were entitled not to. Instead of learning how to become a legal, they learned that people aren't illegal, only laws are. Instead of trying to become americans they learned everywhere there is a mexican there is a mexico.
In the end, for the security of our country they must be deported.
Thanks....and might I also add, this is a CLASSIC case of what happens when a small problem is swept under the rug, ignored, and allowed to 'fester'. False hopes are allowed to build, gratitude is replaced by a sense of entitlement, and the example of 'lax enforcement' is taken to be 'par for the course'. Then, when it can no longer be ignored, and something MUST be done, the rage and resentment and disruption are FAR worse than they would have been, had the situation only been handled with a little 'backbone' from the start. Just human nature, I guess.

The final irony of the whole thing is that MEChA, LULAC, and the whole "Aztlan" movement are 95% the work of American-born 'wackos'...many of them college-educated. With friends like THOSE, the illegals don't NEED enemies.
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:29 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Thanks....and might I also add, this is a CLASSIC case of what happens when a small problem is swept under the rug, ignored, and allowed to 'fester'. False hopes are allowed to build, gratitude is replaced by a sense of entitlement, and the example of 'lax enforcement' is taken to be 'par for the course'. Then, when it can no longer be ignored, and something MUST be done, the rage and resentment and disruption are FAR worse than they would have been, had the situation only been handled with a little 'backbone' from the start. Just human nature, I guess.

The final irony of the whole thing is that MEChA, LULAC, and the whole "Aztlan" movement are 95% the work of American-born 'wackos'...many of them college-educated. With friends like THOSE, the illegals don't NEED enemies.
Thats the thing. People talk so much about how illegals are disrespectful, how they hate Americans, how they are whiny and demanding, but that is mostly the work of groups like MeCha that "represent" illegals, and "advocate illegals".
Most illegals aren't so in your face..most of them are people looking for work minding their own business. Someone says theyre going to help them? Why not? They allow these politicians to speak for them. And me, I dont trust any politician.


But like camping! said, the problem isnt the individual. Its the sheer numbers of illegal immigrants, and I realize that. But I dont think you can realistically end illegal immigration, or deport all those already here, you can only try to curb it.

I dont deny that in the larger picture, illegal immigration is a problem for this country. But I think it can be acknowledged and dealt with, without having to hate the individual illegal immigrant. Or bashing the culture of the people illegally immigrating here, because a lot of law abiding citizens here and in countries like Mexico are still close to that culture. So why speak bad of the culture because of the few who are corrupt and are criminals? Its a slap in the face to all the good people who practice that culture.
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Old 09-21-2008, 01:56 AM
 
638 posts, read 1,637,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomU View Post
The question itself is loaded
They always are.
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:04 AM
 
Location: THEN: Paso Robles, Ca * NOW: Albuquerque, NM
519 posts, read 1,529,396 times
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One of the reasons my former employer hired illegal (fake SS cards, etc.) workers is because he wanted cheap workers. In my experience (in CA), many employers want cheap(er) labor. As long as that desire persists, illegals will be getting jobs.

As my dad says, we should take over Mexico and make it a habitable/desirable place so the citizens will WANT to stay. =)
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckzter View Post
One of the reasons my former employer hired illegal (fake SS cards, etc.) workers is because he wanted cheap workers. In my experience (in CA), many employers want cheap(er) labor. As long as that desire persists, illegals will be getting jobs.

As my dad says, we should take over Mexico and make it a habitable/desirable place so the citizens will WANT to stay. =)
Also known as nation building. Very poor success rate, and very costly. It would be better to close the border, contrl immigration as the law requires.
Go after all employers of illegals. I mean all employers. Go after the land lords. Take away the work, take away the shelters and they will self deport.
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