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Old 09-20-2008, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Where laws can be ignored due to political correctness
1,111 posts, read 1,582,143 times
Reputation: 267

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I've recently joined a political debating club in my community and we are currently debating on illegal immigration in the US. I'm not very knowledgeable in this subject so I'd like to ask for some assistance from anyone, whether you're pro or anti-illegal immigration.

Here are my questions:

1. Does our economy need illegal immigrants to do the work that many Americans won't do (namely manual work performed on agricultural land)?

2. (a) Would our economy face financial problems if all the illegal immigrants, who do the less desirable jobs, left the United States right now?
(b) What about if they all left when our economy was still doing well during the 1990s?
(c) If the illegal immigrants, who perform the less desirable occupations, departed would there be an immense vacancy for work? If so, how would businesses find employees to do those less desirable occupations?
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:23 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,033,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
I've recently joined a political debating club in my community and we are currently debating on illegal immigration in the US. I'm not very knowledgeable in this subject so I'd like to ask for some assistance from anyone, whether you're pro or anti-illegal immigration.

Here are my questions:

1. Does our economy need illegal immigrants to do the work that many Americans won't do (namely manual work performed on agricultural land)?
No. Also, illegals are not 'just' picking lettuce. They are working construction, factory and packing house plants. All good paying jobs, and all jobs that can be filled by citizens or legal residents.
2. (a) Would our economy face financial problems if all the illegal immigrants, who do the less desirable jobs, left the United States right now? No. I believe that the economy would improve. There would be more work available, more people earning a living. Yes, prices may go up --- but if you haven't noticed, they already are.
(b) What about if they all left when our economy was still doing well during the 1990s? No problem there. There were still people out of work, then too.
(c) If the illegal immigrants, who perform the less desirable occupations, departed would there be an immense vacancy for work? If so, how would businesses find employees to do those less desirable occupations?
No, there would not be an 'immense vacancy' in the workplace. What would happen is that the locals would be able to apply for the jobs now being held by illegals. Furthermore, without illegals 'scabbing' the workplace employers will have to pay a living wage and benefits for the jobs they now pay illegals to do for peanuts.

Deportation is a win/win/win for the US. Less people (illegals) in the school system, less illegals scabbing down job salaries, less illegals crowding cities and towns.....fiscally/socially and environmentally we cannot afford twelve + million illegals in this country.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Wichita,Kansas
2,731 posts, read 5,936,312 times
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1.No, thats what guest worker programs are for..we have used them in the past.
2.There would be some financial losses in some Communities,
Overall things would balance out,less Government assistance,Hospital issues,etc
They add money to the economy but send much of it to Mexico,
Places like Wal-mart would probably take a big hit.
Business would be forced to raise the pay and cut staff.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,057 posts, read 29,713,783 times
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The thing that bothers me is the way everyone conveniently ignores that word, "illegal." If you're here illegally, then you don't really belong here, do you? If legal resident status leading to citizenship isn't on your list of priorities and you're caught here as an illegal, then you should be deported, and that should be the end of the matter.

I am not opposed to immigration at all. This entire nation was built on it. But I don't support illegals.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:32 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
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I dont know a lot of people who are actually for illegal immigrants.
Not many people are for "open borders", or "illegal immigrant rights".

Sometimes people speak out against the vilifying of illegal immigrants, and the breeding of hate against illegal immigrants, and that gets them mistaken for being "pro-illegal".

Youre more likely to find people who are supportive of allowing illegal immigrants to become legal citizens than people who think its okay for illegal immigrants to remain illegal and to be hired instead of US citizens.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:44 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,033,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
I dont know a lot of people who are actually for illegal immigrants.
Not many people are for "open borders", or "illegal immigrant rights".

Sometimes people speak out against the vilifying of illegal immigrants, and the breeding of hate against illegal immigrants, and that gets them mistaken for being "pro-illegal".

Youre more likely to find people who are supportive of allowing illegal immigrants to become legal citizens than people who think its okay for illegal immigrants to remain illegal and to be hired instead of US citizens.
I see your concern about growing resentment towards illegals, and the fear that the resentment may grow into hate.

However, what confuses me is this --- you say nobody is really for open borders or illegal immigration, yet at the same time you are for legalizing their status in one form or another. That is like saying, I don't really think stealing is a good thing, but if the storekeepers back is turned -- hey! It's not the theifs fault he took what was just laying there.
'Pro-illegal immigration' proponenants simply cannot have it every which way. Either you are for a closed border or you are not. Either you are against millions of people living and working in the US without government oversight and acceptance (and sorry, Mexicos government OK does not count ) or you are not.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:17 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I see your concern about growing resentment towards illegals, and the fear that the resentment may grow into hate.

However, what confuses me is this --- you say nobody is really for open borders or illegal immigration, yet at the same time you are for legalizing their status in one form or another. That is like saying, I don't really think stealing is a good thing, but if the storekeepers back is turned -- hey! It's not the theifs fault he took what was just laying there.
'Pro-illegal immigration' proponenants simply cannot have it every which way. Either you are for a closed border or you are not. Either you are against millions of people living and working in the US without government oversight and acceptance (and sorry, Mexicos government OK does not count ) or you are not.
A very well-stated piece on a very controversial topic. It reminds me of a point I've tried to make, with very limited success..and that is, you simply CAN'T reduce or control illegal immigration, if one of your goals is to meet with the approval of the illegals themselves. It may SOUND nice, sensitive, and 'inclusive' to advocate for "comprehensive immigration reform"..but it's wishful thinking, because any "reform" in illegal immigration, that in any way meets the needs of American citizens, is pretty obviously going to work AGAINST illegals.

If your purpose is to 'clean up crime'...even MINOR crime....ANY crime...then obviously, the "criminals" aren't going to approve. If their approval is seen as 'neccessary', then any 'clean-up' you envision, is probably unlikely to happen.
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:16 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I see your concern about growing resentment towards illegals, and the fear that the resentment may grow into hate.

However, what confuses me is this --- you say nobody is really for open borders or illegal immigration, yet at the same time you are for legalizing their status in one form or another. That is like saying, I don't really think stealing is a good thing, but if the storekeepers back is turned -- hey! It's not the theifs fault he took what was just laying there.
'Pro-illegal immigration' proponenants simply cannot have it every which way. Either you are for a closed border or you are not. Either you are against millions of people living and working in the US without government oversight and acceptance (and sorry, Mexicos government OK does not count ) or you are not.

I haven't made much commentary as far as amnesty, because I dont know everything about it.
Generally, I would like to see people who want to become American citizens become American citizens.
I understand the motives for some people to come here illegally, not to say its right, but I understand why they do it.

At this point, youre not going to be able to get rid of so many illegals already here. So why not tighten the borders, and make it so those already here can come forward and become taxpaying citizens?



Like Ive mentioned time and time again, most of my posts arent really political. I never say illegal immigration is acceptable.

But why are people going to pretend coming here illegally is the crime of the century?
Its wrong, but come on, holding an illegal immigrant at the same level as a rapist or murderer?
Or pulling up articles where there are rapists or murderers who happen to be illegal, and making that the face of the illegal immigrant?

Im against all the hate. I'm against the generalizations, the stereotypes, all the BS coming from the anti-illegal side.

But being against that doesnt make me "racist" "pro-illegal" "un-American" or
having an "allegiance to Mexico".
People like Guy, or Macmeal like to accuse me of everything that has ever been said by the "other side". Its funny how they put all that on me, when I get along with some 'anti-illegals'. I also get along with people who work for the Border Patrol.
If I was really so narrowminded, and ignorant, don't you think I'd be against anyone on the other side of the debate?
People on here think I'm against them because I'm blinded by my "allegiance to my ethnicity", I dont like to hear the truth, etc etc.

Nah, Im against them because theyre full of sh*t. And they are irrational about it. I can get along perfectly with some who can discuss it without getting angry and launching a tirade of stereotypes to back up what they are saying.

I'm from a modest background, but I enjoy my life, and I enjoy life in America. Its still a great place, and things need to be done to keep it a great place, including enforcing the border and curbing illegal immigration.
The thing about this debate, is that people are just pissed off. Theyre pissed off because their taxes are a little higher, or theyre seeing a lot of Spanish, or they read articles that show pictures of day workers flipping off the camera. They get so pissed off, they have to google some more stuff to be pissed off about. And when thats not enough, they got to google some stuff about Mexico to be pissed off about.

Its crazy.
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:39 PM
 
307 posts, read 458,164 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
I've recently joined a political debating club in my community and we are currently debating on illegal immigration in the US. I'm not very knowledgeable in this subject so I'd like to ask for some assistance from anyone, whether you're pro or anti-illegal immigration.

Here are my questions:

1. Does our economy need illegal immigrants to do the work that many Americans won't do (namely manual work performed on agricultural land)?

The question itself is loaded and makes a FALSE assumption. That there are jobs that Americans won't do. Check out a show called "Dirty Jobs" to see that Americans will do the dirtiest jobs out there. Just as long as you pay them an appropriate wage.

Americans dealing with Roaches, Rats and Snakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WyTS...eature=related

Americans working on Septic Tanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvUB8...eature=related

Americans Working with Worm Poop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD9pP...eature=related


Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
2. (a) Would our economy face financial problems if all the illegal immigrants, who do the less desirable jobs, left the United States right now?
Once again the question is loaded. No matter what method is used ALL of the Illegals will not and can not leave RIGHT NOW. It will take months even under the most ambitious program before they all leave or are ejected. Just look at Arizona and Oklahoma.


Quote:
Originally Posted by antireconquista View Post
(c) If the illegal immigrants, who perform the less desirable occupations, departed would there be an immense vacancy for work? If so, how would businesses find employees to do those less desirable occupations?
The same way they have always found employees. Offer a decent wage and get the word out and/or advertise.

Random

Last edited by RandomU; 09-20-2008 at 06:12 PM..
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:41 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I see your concern about growing resentment towards illegals, and the fear that the resentment may grow into hate.
Fair enough...but what situation, anywhere, can be compared with the one we have here today? Frankly, I can't think of many. We have upwards of 20 million people here, illegally...about one tenth of a pretty large country...and we can't even discuss it without "instant outrage". And some people have "concern about growing resentment"? Oh, really? I suppose there WOULD be growing resentment, given these facts....absolutely. Could this grow into hate? I sure hope not...and not among MOST people, I'm sure..but really, given the above situation, what would be the EXPECTED result? Smiles? Hugs? Let's be realistic here for a moment.

As I've said before, in MANY societies, this situation would lead to violence and bloodshed...Here?.....some detect a 'growing resentment'....OK. Is that GOOD? Of course not.. But is it SURPRISING? I hardly think so. It would be surprising if there WASN'T resentment.
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