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Old 09-24-2008, 01:48 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous Political Junky View Post
But there are people in this forum who will tell you that the second generation speaks all English and hardly any Spanish, which of course is patently false.
In fact, in most immigrant families I've known, the second generation DOES speak (mostly) English...that's not the problem. The problem is that ANY second-generation American has, by definition, already been here for TWO GENERATIONS (Duh)...and two generations ago, American society was still strongly 'pushing' assimilation, and people felt pressured to assimilate, and as a result, most DID.

Today, there is NO pressure to assimilate (it's all about 'just wanting to be here'), and very little agreement on what 'assimilation' even MEANS any more...(Some folks will insist the standard for becoming a part of American society today, is 'anything you WANT it to be'), and there are virtually no "requirements" for becoming a "member of society"..certainly not speaking English, and for all practical purposes, not becoming a legal citizen, either...It's ALL GOOD, and everyone belongs..legal or illegal, English or not, love the place or hate it, ANYONE can 'hang up his shingle' and call himself an "American"...

Under THESE circumstances, while it's true that the 'second generation' in times past has assimilated, I see VERY little assurance that today's "newbies" will be anywhere NEAR assimilated, two generations in the future...but of course, I could be wrong, for by then, nobody will have any concept of what they should "assimilate" to, anyway....it's really just a big "first-come, first-served" grab bag, and those who have the "moxie" to crowd in front of the line, get "first dibs"...wonderful lesson for all of us.
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Old 09-24-2008, 01:59 PM
 
3,859 posts, read 9,173,371 times
Reputation: 2728
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
In fact, in most immigrant families I've known, the second generation DOES speak (mostly) English...that's not the problem. The problem is that ANY second-generation American has, by definition, already been here for TWO GENERATIONS (Duh)...and two generations ago, American society was still strongly 'pushing' assimilation, and people felt pressured to assimilate, and as a result, most DID.

Today, there is NO pressure to assimilate (it's all about 'just wanting to be here'), and very little agreement on what 'assimilation' even MEANS any more...(Some folks will insist the standard for becoming a part of American society today, is 'anything you WANT it to be'), and there are virtually no "requirements" for becoming a "member of society"..certainly not speaking English, and for all practical purposes, not becoming a legal citizen, either...It's ALL GOOD, and everyone belongs..legal or illegal, English or not, love the place or hate it, ANYONE can 'hang up his shingle' and call himself an "American"...

Under THESE circumstances, while it's true that the 'second generation' in times past has assimilated, I see VERY little assurance that today's "newbies" will be anywhere NEAR assimilated, two generations in the future...but of course, I could be wrong, for by then, nobody will have any concept of what they should "assimilate" to, anyway....it's really just a big "first-come, first-served" grab bag, and those who have the "moxie" to crowd in front of the line, get "first dibs"...wonderful lesson for all of us.

Excellent post Mac!!
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolem View Post
Excellent post Mac!!
Ditto!
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:11 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,072,228 times
Reputation: 2244
people have been complaining about immigrant assimilation patterns for years. if germans and poles assimilated, and this study says hispanic immigrants assimilate, what would be different about... say the recent wave of african immigrants or any other "newbies" ?
what do you think will change in US society that will make assimilation less desirable, important or standard?

we have a more multicultural society now. its not as WASPy as before. but when i think about assimiliation, i do think about language, customs and traditions like baseball. as time passes our image of what is US culture changes. its been changing ever since the pilgrims got here.
i think some people just dont like the changes occuring.

i welcome these changes.
there was a time that US culture was defined by a subservient black population.
the kind that yessumed and stepped off the sidewalk. thats what, 50 years removed?
our society changes and we adapt to the changes.
this is nothing new.
neither is the disdain for certain changes.

immigrants will continue to assimilate, and the reality is that the society that they assimilte to will also se changes. its a give and take.
what matters most is Justice and Liberty. as long as we have those im ok. when we lose those. then we got problems.

score one for assimilted immigrants!!!!
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Old 09-24-2008, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,207,047 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
In fact, in most immigrant families I've known, the second generation DOES speak (mostly) English...that's not the problem. The problem is that ANY second-generation American has, by definition, already been here for TWO GENERATIONS (Duh)...and two generations ago, American society was still strongly 'pushing' assimilation, and people felt pressured to assimilate, and as a result, most DID.

Today, there is NO pressure to assimilate (it's all about 'just wanting to be here'), and very little agreement on what 'assimilation' even MEANS any more...(Some folks will insist the standard for becoming a part of American society today, is 'anything you WANT it to be'), and there are virtually no "requirements" for becoming a "member of society"..certainly not speaking English, and for all practical purposes, not becoming a legal citizen, either...It's ALL GOOD, and everyone belongs..legal or illegal, English or not, love the place or hate it, ANYONE can 'hang up his shingle' and call himself an "American"...

Under THESE circumstances, while it's true that the 'second generation' in times past has assimilated, I see VERY little assurance that today's "newbies" will be anywhere NEAR assimilated, two generations in the future...but of course, I could be wrong, for by then, nobody will have any concept of what they should "assimilate" to, anyway....it's really just a big "first-come, first-served" grab bag, and those who have the "moxie" to crowd in front of the line, get "first dibs"...wonderful lesson for all of us.
Race baiting,
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Old 09-24-2008, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
people have been complaining about immigrant assimilation patterns for years. if germans and poles assimilated, and this study says hispanic immigrants assimilate, what would be different about... say the recent wave of african immigrants or any other "newbies" ?
what do you think will change in US society that will make assimilation less desirable, important or standard?

we have a more multicultural society now. its not as WASPy as before. but when i think about assimiliation, i do think about language, customs and traditions like baseball. as time passes our image of what is US culture changes. its been changing ever since the pilgrims got here.
i think some people just dont like the changes occuring.

i welcome these changes.
there was a time that US culture was defined by a subservient black population.
the kind that yessumed and stepped off the sidewalk. thats what, 50 years removed?
our society changes and we adapt to the changes.
this is nothing new.
neither is the disdain for certain changes.

immigrants will continue to assimilate, and the reality is that the society that they assimilte to will also se changes. its a give and take.
what matters most is Justice and Liberty. as long as we have those im ok. when we lose those. then we got problems.

score one for assimilted immigrants!!!!
FYI: it was not just Blacks who received the short end of the stick till the Jim Crow laws went bye-bye-------140 years ago the Irish had a worse rep in many cities. Drunkiness, brawling, etc.----------yet, the Irish as a 'culture' changed dramatically. Too they were here legally.

I have observed that those Mexicans who came here legally tend to assimilate quite nicely----------they as a group wish to better themselves.

As for the illegal ones---------------when you leave; don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya'.
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Old 09-24-2008, 06:50 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
we have a more multicultural society now. its not as WASPy as before. but when i think about assimiliation, i do think about language, customs and traditions like baseball. as time passes our image of what is US culture changes. its been changing ever since the pilgrims got here.
i think some people just dont like the changes occuring.

i welcome these changes.

what matters most is Justice and Liberty. as long as we have those im ok. when we lose those. then we got problems.

score one for assimilted immigrants!!!!

Good post, and I'll try to explain my position. First, let me explain that I'm a white guy, but definitely not a WASP. My wife is neither white, NOR is she a WASP. BOTH of us, in fact, had ancestors in the past who had real PROBLEMS with WASPs. They didn't 'let us into their system' at first. Gradually, though, we assimilated over generations....and by that, I mean the WASPs didn't become more like US...we became more like THEM.

You state we're less "Waspy" than before, and you feel this is a good thing. On some levels, I certainly agree. I'd hate a society which featured only "Wasp" cooking...or "Wasp" music, art, or literature. It would be an awfully dull place....(if there even IS such a thing as Wasp Cooking). However, on a deeper level, I have a REAL problem with our society becoming less 'waspy'...

Whether you or I like it or not, the fact is that the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, and our VERY rare system of laws and protections and freedoms, are "Wasp" inventions...and I'm convinced that if those "stuffy old Wasps" who started this VERY multiethnic society hadn't done so, it's unlikely that anyone else would have. These Wasps were so dead-set on 'freedom' that they specifically set out to make clear that freedom was meant for ALL Americans, not just "Wasps"....and when those rules were written, it was a "first"..and it STILL hasn't reached most of the world. And it's those "wasp ideas", not the climate, or the 'air', or anything else, that today makes the US different from Russia, or China, or Afghanistan, or anywhere else. This country is different, not because we don't LOOK LIKE the people in Europe, or Africa, or Asia..but because we don't ACT like them, or LIVE like them. We're no longer "like" our ancestors..we're Americans. And the system we live under was the work of a few WASPS....



Here's a FAIR question for you...if you feel that we should become LESS 'waspy', what do you propose we become MORE like? AS I look around the world, I don't see many 'un-Waspy" models I'd like to live in. How about a Catholic society? No thanks...been there, done that. The Latin-American model? Seems like THOSE folks are giving up in droves, and coming HERE. No thanks. How about the African model, or the Chinese style of society? Nope. Want to live in a Muslim society? I don't. Nor German, nor Turkish, nor just about ANY place. I like it here, where I can be myself, but have the basic "wasp-style" protections, and that "wasp-style" insistence on the rule of LAW, not tribe, religion, race, or ethnic group.

So I'll finish by saying again that I'm not a WASP by ethnicity, but I've done pretty well under their system ,even if it IS stuffy. And I don't want to 'toss it out' until I see a better offer. So far, I see NO better 'system', and a WHOLE LOT of worse ones. Pardon me if I'm not anxious to become TOO MUCH less "waspy" just yet.
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Old 09-24-2008, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
As macmeal stated.

I self identify as a WASP as well............never mind my actual ethnicity.

And; more and more, I perceive 'people of color' who follow WASP culture as being WASP's as well. Tiger Woods, Oprah, Condi, Colin Powell and even Barack Obama along with multitudes of Asians and some Latinos.
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:51 AM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,072,228 times
Reputation: 2244
When i say "less waspy", i mean less adherent to those social normas that make a group of people, who happen to be monied or with ties to a particular region in europe, THINK they are better than others. i am not talking about political systems, but social beliefs. i could take everything else. just not the idea of a supremcay of the monied over the working class (or blue collar).
i understand the history of the political system and democray we have. the values we hold. the work ethic. but my point is that we are moving from an image like that of ivy league "legacy's" who gain acceptance based on their last name$, to a more multicultural one that embraces variety and does put people on the same level, and also rewards those who strive for great accomplishments. thats what i want.

also im not advocating morphing into any other county other than the one we live in. it being a country of immmigrants it is only natural that the face(figuratively and literally) will change.
maybe futbol or rugby might be the national pastime in the near future.

in the end, ill take the laws and justice, just not the elitism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Good post, and I'll try to explain my position. First, let me explain that I'm a white guy, but definitely not a WASP. My wife is neither white, NOR is she a WASP. BOTH of us, in fact, had ancestors in the past who had real PROBLEMS with WASPs. They didn't 'let us into their system' at first. Gradually, though, we assimilated over generations....and by that, I mean the WASPs didn't become more like US...we became more like THEM.

You state we're less "Waspy" than before, and you feel this is a good thing. On some levels, I certainly agree. I'd hate a society which featured only "Wasp" cooking...or "Wasp" music, art, or literature. It would be an awfully dull place....(if there even IS such a thing as Wasp Cooking). However, on a deeper level, I have a REAL problem with our society becoming less 'waspy'...

Whether you or I like it or not, the fact is that the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, and our VERY rare system of laws and protections and freedoms, are "Wasp" inventions...and I'm convinced that if those "stuffy old Wasps" who started this VERY multiethnic society hadn't done so, it's unlikely that anyone else would have. These Wasps were so dead-set on 'freedom' that they specifically set out to make clear that freedom was meant for ALL Americans, not just "Wasps"....and when those rules were written, it was a "first"..and it STILL hasn't reached most of the world. And it's those "wasp ideas", not the climate, or the 'air', or anything else, that today makes the US different from Russia, or China, or Afghanistan, or anywhere else. This country is different, not because we don't LOOK LIKE the people in Europe, or Africa, or Asia..but because we don't ACT like them, or LIVE like them. We're no longer "like" our ancestors..we're Americans. And the system we live under was the work of a few WASPS....



Here's a FAIR question for you...if you feel that we should become LESS 'waspy', what do you propose we become MORE like? AS I look around the world, I don't see many 'un-Waspy" models I'd like to live in. How about a Catholic society? No thanks...been there, done that. The Latin-American model? Seems like THOSE folks are giving up in droves, and coming HERE. No thanks. How about the African model, or the Chinese style of society? Nope. Want to live in a Muslim society? I don't. Nor German, nor Turkish, nor just about ANY place. I like it here, where I can be myself, but have the basic "wasp-style" protections, and that "wasp-style" insistence on the rule of LAW, not tribe, religion, race, or ethnic group.

So I'll finish by saying again that I'm not a WASP by ethnicity, but I've done pretty well under their system ,even if it IS stuffy. And I don't want to 'toss it out' until I see a better offer. So far, I see NO better 'system', and a WHOLE LOT of worse ones. Pardon me if I'm not anxious to become TOO MUCH less "waspy" just yet.
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:54 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
When i say "less waspy", i mean less adherent to those social normas that make a group of people, who happen to be monied or with ties to a particular region in europe, THINK they are better than others. i am not talking about political systems, but social beliefs. i could take everything else. just not the idea of a supremcay of the monied over the working class (or blue collar).
i understand the history of the political system and democray we have. the values we hold. the work ethic. but my point is that we are moving from an image like that of ivy league "legacy's" who gain acceptance based on their last name$, to a more multicultural one that embraces variety and does put people on the same level, and also rewards those who strive for great accomplishments. thats what i want.

also im not advocating morphing into any other county other than the one we live in. it being a country of immmigrants it is only natural that the face(figuratively and literally) will change.
maybe futbol or rugby might be the national pastime in the near future.

in the end, ill take the laws and justice, just not the elitism.

Fair enough. Thanks for the feedback..
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