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Old 09-30-2008, 03:38 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Absolutely! This is precisely why it's so infuriating when pro-illegals try to exploit these injustices to lend credence to their baseless claims of racism.
Pretty hard to see 'eye to eye' with some of these folks, for sure...It's hard to seriously listen to a person listing cultural attributes which "don't make him feel any less American", when at the same time, spending large amounts of time and energy in attempting to blur the difference between 'American citizen' and 'illegal immigrant' is ALSO seen as an "OK" cause, and not reflecting on anyone's being "more" or "less" American. Even the illegals aren't seen as 'less' than immigrants....they're 'just the same as immigrants in every way, except ONE..and that's not an important point, anyway'....

At some point, you have to wonder, is the reason some of these folks feel there are no 'conditions' attached to 'being an American', partially because maybe, in their eyes, there's no such THING? Is it REALLY all that's neccessary to be an American is that one "wants to be here"? That's ALL?

After all, if I don't believe in 'education', then nothing you can call me will make me feel 'uneducated'.... especially if I WANT to be educated, but haven't yet gotten around to it...right?

 
Old 09-30-2008, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Pretty hard to see 'eye to eye' with some of these folks, for sure...It's hard to seriously listen to a person listing cultural attributes which "don't make him feel any less American", when at the same time, spending large amounts of time and energy in attempting to blur the difference between 'American citizen' and 'illegal immigrant' is ALSO seen as an "OK" cause, and not reflecting on anyone's being "more" or "less" American. Even the illegals aren't seen as 'less' than immigrants....they're 'just the same as immigrants in every way, except ONE..and that's not an important point, anyway'....

At some point, you have to wonder, is the reason some of these folks feel there are no 'conditions' attached to 'being an American', partially because maybe, in their eyes, there's no such THING? Is it REALLY all that's neccessary to be an American is that one "wants to be here"? That's ALL?

After all, if I don't believe in 'education', then nothing you can call me will make me feel 'uneducated'.... especially if I WANT to be educated, but haven't yet gotten around to it...right?
Bingo! If we eliminate all requirements, and everyone has equal claims to everything, then it becomes a free-for-all. There are no ‘qualifying’ factors to consider. Anything goes, and nothing is wrong. Being an “American” then becomes subjective. An illegal alien can then be perceived as being as much American as the legal citizen. Who are we to judge?

I’m not a Bible scholar, but I believe it has been prophesied one day that which is right will be wrong, and vise versa. I believe that prophesy is currently being fulfilled.
 
Old 09-30-2008, 04:48 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Iím not a Bible scholar, but I believe it has been prophesied one day that which is right will be wrong, and vise versa. I believe that prophesy is currently being fulfilled.
I'm not a 'scholar' either, but I seem to recall words to that effect. It's profoundly disturbing, and the only reason we aren't SHOCKED, is that it happens gradually, over time. But yes, just as you say, in many ways, over the past 3 to 4 decades, there has been almost a LITERAL change from what was once "right" to what today is looked at as "wrong"....and what was once "wrong" is now "right". This is true all across the 'spectrum', and the attempt to DEAL with this, and to EXPLAIN it in a way that we'll accept, is a large part of what's behind the entire "PC" 'industry'. That's what PC is, in the end....an attempt to make unpleasant reality sound 'nice'....and the VERY insidious related goal, to obliterate all attempts at 'judgements' or assigning 'values' to anything...(i.e., "it's ALL good").

Good work, Benicar, you've really 'hit it on the head' here.
 
Old 09-30-2008, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 32,896,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Coming from your experience in today's world, you probably WOULDN'T have 'endured' the deprivations and rigors of society back then, including the racist military. But the people back then didn't have your perspective; they endured as best they could, and made the best of what life dealt them, and they eventually prospered.

MOST of us would be unwilling to 'go through' what our ancestors did...but if they had NOT 'done what had to be done', maybe we wouldn't be here today, criticizing them.
I explicitly said earlier that I was not criticizing them, partially for some of the reasons you laid out.........
 
Old 09-30-2008, 10:51 PM
 
2,256 posts, read 2,962,830 times
Reputation: 1215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Sadly, an accurate description of many immigrants currently residing in this country. They will never truly embrace America -- only what America provides.
See, the thing is, I don't see this going on a lot. I don't think you grasp just how much many foreigners admire the United States as a romantic notion.

Heck, in Juarez, Mexico there is a statue of Abraham Lincoln, an American president. Would you ever see a statue of Benito Juarez in Cleveland? I sincerely doubt so.

I think the mistake many make is that they see an immigrant flying the flag of their country, and take it as a conscious denial of their new American home. That is simply not the case.

In Greektown in Chicago there are Greek flags all over the place, but most of the people living there were probably born in the U.S. It is simply a way of celebrating their heritage. Do you think they pledge allegiance to Greece? Certainly not.

But then we can get into the fact that northern Mexico and the Southwestern United States have common histories and cultures, but that's a much longer argument.
 
Old 09-30-2008, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
608 posts, read 791,184 times
Reputation: 409
Come on, down with the BS! I currently reside in southern Texas and have seen more than my fair share of imigrants (mostly illegal) that refuse to assimilate in the US culture. I'm tired of dealing with a large population block in my town that refuses to learn the language, follow the laws, or even get auto insurence! These people won't assimilate, refuse to teach their childen to do so, and have no issue proving that their loyalties lie with another nation. It's one thing to honor your origins, yet another to hold a foreign nation above your own. If these rebels truely feel this way than perhaps their food stamps, education (in a bi-lingual classroom), their employment, and their free healthcare need to be relinquished. (I'd rather my money goes towards helping US citizen first anyway) For those that disagree, I live here and I see it daily so please don't tell me I don't know what I'm taking about.
 
Old 09-30-2008, 11:22 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus89 View Post
See, the thing is, I don't see this going on a lot. I don't think you grasp just how much many foreigners admire the United States as a romantic notion.

Heck, in Juarez, Mexico there is a statue of Abraham Lincoln, an American president. Would you ever see a statue of Benito Juarez in Cleveland? I sincerely doubt so.

I think the mistake many make is that they see an immigrant flying the flag of their country, and take it as a conscious denial of their new American home. That is simply not the case.

In Greektown in Chicago there are Greek flags all over the place, but most of the people living there were probably born in the U.S. It is simply a way of celebrating their heritage. Do you think they pledge allegiance to Greece? Certainly not.

But then we can get into the fact that northern Mexico and the Southwestern United States have common histories and cultures, but that's a much longer argument.
Honestly, youre making a good point, but it might go wasted.
I didnt know there was a statue of Abe Lincoln in Juarez, that's pretty interesting.

But a lot of the people angry over illegal immigration hold simplistic views of the immigrants(or aliens), or even the people of Mexico themselves. They are the enemy, and they are all 'spitting in our faces'. They are all here to steal our tax money, they don't really want children, they just want to have 'anchor babies'.
Believe me, Ive frequently mentioned how other European and Asian immigrants demonstrated that same celebration of their heritage, waved the flags of their respective countries, but people on here insist that it's somehow different.

All those people "downplayed their ethnicity" and wanted to just be American.
They didn't "demand handouts". They 'knew their place" in American, and kept a low profile until they were accepted as Americans(according to some on here).
Even then, if they wave their flags, whatever.

But the Mexican immigrants(or -Americans) of today waving a Mexican flag, oh, that is treason of the foulest kind. That is disrespecting this country, that is an invasion, a refusal to assimilate, an 'act of war'(I'm not making these up!), etc etc.

Language? Oh boy. Every other group of immigrants to this country spoke English as soon as they stepped off the boat. They made the EFFORT. They were ashamed to speak their first language..they knew they were Americans now. Not like these Mexicans, who get to take their driver's test in Spanish. SPANISH!!!
Oh yeah, and generations of Mexican-Americans refuse to learn English. Obviously, these people will never assimilate.
What? You see plenty of recent Latino immigrants speak English?
What? Koreatown and Chinatown..people speaking other than English? Let's ignore that..


This whole discussion is plagued with so many generalizations, assumptions, and newly made(and some recycled) stereotypes.

I don't think any of us are against enforcing the border, but I could never agree with people who spend so much energy on coming up with reasons why we should hate illegal immigrants, and Mexicans(its not racist, theyre not a race, by the way, its ok to criticize them because they make up the majority of illegals!) instead of thinking of a logical way to close the border.

Its to the point where many of the posts criticize Mexico in general! Its ok to make critical and offensive "observations" on Mexican culture, that if used for any other group, would be considered hateful and racist. But there are different rules in this board. People dont care for "political correctness."
If the person is illegal, they are less than human. Scum. Along the way, lets dissect Latino culture, criticize it, question its validity, and ultimately dismiss it as not being very important or worth appreciating....but wait, were just against illegals.

Its all a bunch of BS.
 
Old 09-30-2008, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
608 posts, read 791,184 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Honestly, youre making a good point, but it might go wasted.
I didnt know there was a statue of Abe Lincoln in Juarez, that's pretty interesting.

But a lot of the people angry over illegal immigration hold simplistic views of the immigrants(or aliens), or even the people of Mexico themselves. They are the enemy, and they are all 'spitting in our faces'. They are all here to steal our tax money, they don't really want children, they just want to have 'anchor babies'.
Believe me, Ive frequently mentioned how other European and Asian immigrants demonstrated that same celebration of their heritage, waved the flags of their respective countries, but people on here insist that it's somehow different.

All those people "downplayed their ethnicity" and wanted to just be American.
They didn't "demand handouts". They 'knew their place" in American, and kept a low profile until they were accepted as Americans(according to some on here).
Even then, if they wave their flags, whatever.

But the Mexican immigrants(or -Americans) of today waving a Mexican flag, oh, that is treason of the foulest kind. That is disrespecting this country, that is an invasion, a refusal to assimilate, an 'act of war'(I'm not making these up!), etc etc.

Language? Oh boy. Every other group of immigrants to this country spoke English as soon as they stepped off the boat. They made the EFFORT. They were ashamed to speak their first language..they knew they were Americans now. Not like these Mexicans, who get to take their driver's test in Spanish. SPANISH!!!
Oh yeah, and generations of Mexican-Americans refuse to learn English. Obviously, these people will never assimilate.
What? You see plenty of recent Latino immigrants speak English?
What? Koreatown and Chinatown..people speaking other than English? Let's ignore that..


This whole discussion is plagued with so many generalizations, assumptions, and newly made(and some recycled) stereotypes.

I don't think any of us are against enforcing the border, but I could never agree with people who spend so much energy on coming up with reasons why we should hate illegal immigrants, and Mexicans(its not racist, theyre not a race, by the way, its ok to criticize them because they make up the majority of illegals!) instead of thinking of a logical way to close the border.

Its to the point where many of the posts criticize Mexico in general! Its ok to make critical and offensive "observations" on Mexican culture, that if used for any other group, would be considered hateful and racist. But there are different rules in this board. People dont care for "political correctness."
If the person is illegal, they are less than human. Scum. Along the way, lets dissect Latino culture, criticize it, question its validity, and ultimately dismiss it as not being very important or worth appreciating....but wait, were just against illegals.

Its all a bunch of BS.
Your reply is educated and sadly accurate to some extent but keep in mind that the erradication of the Mexican culture isn't positive for anyone or my point of view. My statement above was made in truth refering to my own personal observations and in no way is meant to bring hatred to a particular group of people or a culture. In regards to finding a sollution to our illegal imigration crises, at this time the law is quite clear on this. I know that our points of view may differ on this subject but if you truely have a desire to find a middle ground within this argument, then please don't be so willing to accuse people of having thoughts or ideals that they may not have. Citizens and illegals are both obviously human so I just can't feel that some people feel differently about that. However, folks on different sides often will try to make their opponent appear to be lacking intellectually (or in human ability of some sort.) I know from reading your posts that you can do better than that. -Nick
 
Old 10-01-2008, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus89 View Post
See, the thing is, I don't see this going on a lot. I don't think you grasp just how much many foreigners admire the United States as a romantic notion.

Heck, in Juarez, Mexico there is a statue of Abraham Lincoln, an American president. Would you ever see a statue of Benito Juarez in Cleveland? I sincerely doubt so.

I think the mistake many make is that they see an immigrant flying the flag of their country, and take it as a conscious denial of their new American home. That is simply not the case.

In Greektown in Chicago there are Greek flags all over the place, but most of the people living there were probably born in the U.S. It is simply a way of celebrating their heritage. Do you think they pledge allegiance to Greece? Certainly not.

But then we can get into the fact that northern Mexico and the Southwestern United States have common histories and cultures, but that's a much longer argument.
Juarez Circle in Wash DC in honor of Benito Juarez.
 
Old 10-01-2008, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Juarez Circle in Wash DC in honor of Benito Juarez.
There's also a Benito Juarez statue located in NYC Benito Juarez - New York City Statues

Statue of Don Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla known as the Father of Mexican Independence located in Hemisfair Park in San Antonio, Texas
Don Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla - San Antonio, Texas - Statues of Historic Figures on Waymarking.com

Mural of Cortez and Montezuma located inside the U.S. Capitol Building, Washingon, DC
"Cortez and Montezuma at Mexican Temple"
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