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Old 10-01-2008, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus89 View Post
See, the thing is, I don't see this going on a lot. I don't think you grasp just how much many foreigners admire the United States as a romantic notion.

Heck, in Juarez, Mexico there is a statue of Abraham Lincoln, an American president. Would you ever see a statue of Benito Juarez in Cleveland? I sincerely doubt so.

I think the mistake many make is that they see an immigrant flying the flag of their country, and take it as a conscious denial of their new American home. That is simply not the case.

In Greektown in Chicago there are Greek flags all over the place, but most of the people living there were probably born in the U.S. It is simply a way of celebrating their heritage. Do you think they pledge allegiance to Greece? Certainly not.

But then we can get into the fact that northern Mexico and the Southwestern United States have common histories and cultures, but that's a much longer argument.
I have no issue with people embracing their culture. However, there’s a difference between embracing culture, and disrespecting the U.S. by waving Mexican flags on top of inverted U.S. flags; or burning and stomping U.S. flags while shouting “Gringos go home!” and “This land is ours!”

The previous Mexican immigrants did not exhibit this brazen disrespect for our country. It is primarily the ingrate Mexican illegals who seem compelled to spit in our faces while touting the supremacy of Mexico. This is why so many Americans feel such utter disdain for Mexicans. It is not racism, it is justifiable outrage.

 
Old 10-01-2008, 09:00 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post

I don't think any of us are against enforcing the border, but I could never agree with people who spend so much energy on coming up with reasons why we should hate illegal immigrants, and Mexicans(its not racist, theyre not a race, by the way, its ok to criticize them because they make up the majority of illegals!) instead of thinking of a logical way to close the border.
I disagree. I think there are PLENTY of people who are 'against enforcing the border'....some of them live in the barrios, and some of them occupy high positions in the Federal Government...both in the USA, and in Mexico. One of them runs the City of Los Angeles. One of them even lives in the White House. These folks, naturally, profess a keen interest in "reforming" the situation, and they talk with great seeming sincerity....right up until the time that someone..ANYONE...suggests a way to actually DO so..then, suddenly, that "won't work", it's "not practical", or it 'sends a bad message', and is seen as 'anti-immigrant', 'tears families apart', and so on. It's clear to anyone who is breathing, that there are a whole BUNCH of people who do NOT want to enforce the border. I know YOU do, amc (as you've made abundantly clear on post after post, spelling out ways in which you'd like to 'enforce the border,), but I don't think many of your cohorts are as sincere as you are...and that's the problem. You can't do this alone.

Anti-latino culture? Anti-Hispanic? I for one have gone to TREMENDOUS effort to carefully spell out my life-long relationship with the Hispanic community, my strong family and marital ties to same, and even my warm personal relationships over the years with individual Mexican illegal immigrants. I see NO reason I can't "like" these people, and hold them in high regard, while at the same time DISLIKE the ongoing problem of illegal immigration as a societal phenomena, and DISLIKE certain aspects of the Mexican culture which tend to excuse or even promote this situation. Yet any reasoned opposition to illegal immigration and the dishonesty in which it's surrounded, opens me up INSTANTLY to charges of 'anti-Latino hatred', etc etc.

Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'm against illegal immigration. The 'anti-Hispanic' stuff is in your mind. It SHOULD be, because that makes it so much easier to explain people's opposition to illegal immigration...they're not REALLY concerned, they "just hate Hispanics". Right. Absolutely.

No, I can NOT speak for others, I can NOT guarantee that no 'xenophobe' will ever come out on my side, and I can NOT promise that all posts will be 'logical and reasonable'. And neither can you. I CAN, however, speak for myself and a few others....and for US, I offer no apology. If this is what you see as 'anti-Hispanic', then so be it.

In closing, your final line 'says it all'.. If you've said nothing ELSE this week, for that line at least, you get my admiration. It is, indeed, " all a bunch of BS".
 
Old 10-01-2008, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I disagree. I think there are PLENTY of people who are 'against enforcing the border'....some of them live in the barrios, and some of them occupy high positions in the Federal Government...both in the USA, and in Mexico. One of them runs the City of Los Angeles. One of them even lives in the White House. These folks, naturally, profess a keen interest in "reforming" the situation, and they talk with great seeming sincerity....right up until the time that someone..ANYONE...suggests a way to actually DO so..then, suddenly, that "won't work", it's "not practical", or it 'sends a bad message', and is seen as 'anti-immigrant', 'tears families apart', and so on. It's clear to anyone who is breathing, that there are a whole BUNCH of people who do NOT want to enforce the border. I know YOU do, amc (as you've made abundantly clear on post after post, spelling out ways in which you'd like to 'enforce the border,), but I don't think many of your cohorts are as sincere as you are...and that's the problem. You can't do this alone.

Anti-latino culture? Anti-Hispanic? I for one have gone to TREMENDOUS effort to carefully spell out my life-long relationship with the Hispanic community, my strong family and marital ties to same, and even my warm personal relationships over the years with individual Mexican illegal immigrants. I see NO reason I can't "like" these people, and hold them in high regard, while at the same time DISLIKE the ongoing problem of illegal immigration as a societal phenomena, and DISLIKE certain aspects of the Mexican culture which tend to excuse or even promote this situation. Yet any reasoned opposition to illegal immigration and the dishonesty in which it's surrounded, opens me up INSTANTLY to charges of 'anti-Latino hatred', etc etc.

Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'm against illegal immigration. The 'anti-Hispanic' stuff is in your mind. It SHOULD be, because that makes it so much easier to explain people's opposition to illegal immigration...they're not REALLY concerned, they "just hate Hispanics". Right. Absolutely.

No, I can NOT speak for others, I can NOT guarantee that no 'xenophobe' will ever come out on my side, and I can NOT promise that all posts will be 'logical and reasonable'. And neither can you. I CAN, however, speak for myself and a few others....and for US, I offer no apology. If this is what you see as 'anti-Hispanic', then so be it.

In closing, your final line 'says it all'.. If you've said nothing ELSE this week, for that line at least, you get my admiration. It is, indeed, " all a bunch of BS".
My sentiments EXACTLY! Thank you for another.......
 
Old 10-01-2008, 12:56 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,993,791 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I disagree. I think there are PLENTY of people who are 'against enforcing the border'....some of them live in the barrios, and some of them occupy high positions in the Federal Government...both in the USA, and in Mexico. One of them runs the City of Los Angeles. One of them even lives in the White House. These folks, naturally, profess a keen interest in "reforming" the situation, and they talk with great seeming sincerity....right up until the time that someone..ANYONE...suggests a way to actually DO so..then, suddenly, that "won't work", it's "not practical", or it 'sends a bad message', and is seen as 'anti-immigrant', 'tears families apart', and so on. It's clear to anyone who is breathing, that there are a whole BUNCH of people who do NOT want to enforce the border. I know YOU do, amc (as you've made abundantly clear on post after post, spelling out ways in which you'd like to 'enforce the border,), but I don't think many of your cohorts are as sincere as you are...and that's the problem. You can't do this alone.

Anti-latino culture? Anti-Hispanic? I for one have gone to TREMENDOUS effort to carefully spell out my life-long relationship with the Hispanic community, my strong family and marital ties to same, and even my warm personal relationships over the years with individual Mexican illegal immigrants. I see NO reason I can't "like" these people, and hold them in high regard, while at the same time DISLIKE the ongoing problem of illegal immigration as a societal phenomena, and DISLIKE certain aspects of the Mexican culture which tend to excuse or even promote this situation. Yet any reasoned opposition to illegal immigration and the dishonesty in which it's surrounded, opens me up INSTANTLY to charges of 'anti-Latino hatred', etc etc.

Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'm against illegal immigration. The 'anti-Hispanic' stuff is in your mind. It SHOULD be, because that makes it so much easier to explain people's opposition to illegal immigration...they're not REALLY concerned, they "just hate Hispanics". Right. Absolutely.

No, I can NOT speak for others, I can NOT guarantee that no 'xenophobe' will ever come out on my side, and I can NOT promise that all posts will be 'logical and reasonable'. And neither can you. I CAN, however, speak for myself and a few others....and for US, I offer no apology. If this is what you see as 'anti-Hispanic', then so be it.

In closing, your final line 'says it all'.. If you've said nothing ELSE this week, for that line at least, you get my admiration. It is, indeed, " all a bunch of BS".
Hey, I wasn't doing as much speculating or accusing, as I was just bringing up stuff that has already been said by other members on this forum. I wish I made some of that stuff up, but I guess you could say I plagiarized it from all the comments on this board. Its definitely not "in my mind". I know it wasn't "in my mind" when Ive been attacked several times for expressing a different opinion on here. Been called an illegal, a trollop(?), my mother a 'breeder with multiple babies daddies', and on and on. If people make "my side" look bad, theres plenty people on the other side that makes "your side" look pretty bad, at least to me.

I'm sure theres an explanation of how whats been said on this forum isn't really anti-Mexican sentiment, but I kind of slow on those kinds of things and mightve missed it.
I do know several people have left this forum, not because its a 'losing battle', but because they were really turned off by the attitudes in here, and the abusive nature of the people who are into this debate(on the forum, and off).
Even a couple of staunch anti-illegals have left, determining this forum wasn't just against illegal immigrants. When that happened, I knew it wasn't "in my head".
 
Old 10-01-2008, 01:48 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Hey, I wasn't doing as much speculating or accusing, as I was just bringing up stuff that has already been said by other members on this forum. I wish I made some of that stuff up, but I guess you could say I plagiarized it from all the comments on this board. Its definitely not "in my mind". I know it wasn't "in my mind" when Ive been attacked several times for expressing a different opinion on here. Been called an illegal, a trollop(?), my mother a 'breeder with multiple babies daddies', and on and on. If people make "my side" look bad, theres plenty people on the other side that makes "your side" look pretty bad, at least to me.

I'm sure theres an explanation of how whats been said on this forum isn't really anti-Mexican sentiment, but I kind of slow on those kinds of things and mightve missed it.
I do know several people have left this forum, not because its a 'losing battle', but because they were really turned off by the attitudes in here, and the abusive nature of the people who are into this debate(on the forum, and off).
Even a couple of staunch anti-illegals have left, determining this forum wasn't just against illegal immigrants. When that happened, I knew it wasn't "in my head".
My last desire is to 'stir you up'....believe me!....I can only reiterate the words of the immortal GuyPinestra, (wherever he may be)...nobody that I know of said anything disrespectful about you, OR your Mom....until such time as YOU, (for whatever reason) injected your Mom into the discussion. You, as far as I know, are an American-born citizen..and your Mom's problems, whatever they were, occurred some decades ago. NOBODY (at least nobody worthwhile) on this forum is "disparaging" you, or your Mom, or anybody else, personally. What people (sane people, at least) on this forum are MAD about, is illegal immigration TODAY. They're not mad at your MOM at all (she's undoubtedely a very fine lady)...and they're only mad at YOU, because of your single-minded 'campaign' of legitimizing illegal immigration...not because of your 'race', your color, what 'food you eat', or who your ancestors were. This is a forum 99% about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. It's illegal, it's very much on people's minds, and it's WRONG. And if you attempt to act as an apologist for illegal immigrants, on a forum about illegal immigration, you're going to have to expect a lot of opposition...which is what you're getting.

That's what GuyPinestra TRIED (apparently without success) to get across to you. People don't dislike you because you're Hispanic..they dislike your position on illegal immigration. If you can't separate those two very different 'factors' in your mind, you're not doing your homework.
 
Old 10-01-2008, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
My last desire is to 'stir you up'....believe me!....I can only reiterate the words of the immortal GuyPinestra, (wherever he may be)...nobody that I know of said anything disrespectful about you, OR your Mom....until such time as YOU, (for whatever reason) injected your Mom into the discussion. You, as far as I know, are an American-born citizen..and your Mom's problems, whatever they were, occurred some decades ago. NOBODY (at least nobody worthwhile) on this forum is "disparaging" you, or your Mom, or anybody else, personally. What people (sane people, at least) on this forum are MAD about, is illegal immigration TODAY. They're not mad at your MOM at all (she's undoubtedely a very fine lady)...and they're only mad at YOU, because of your single-minded 'campaign' of legitimizing illegal immigration...not because of your 'race', your color, what 'food you eat', or who your ancestors were. This is a forum 99% about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. It's illegal, it's very much on people's minds, and it's WRONG. And if you attempt to act as an apologist for illegal immigrants, on a forum about illegal immigration, you're going to have to expect a lot of opposition...which is what you're getting.

That's what GuyPinestra TRIED (apparently without success) to get across to you. People don't dislike you because you're Hispanic..they dislike your position on illegal immigration. If you can't separate those two very different 'factors' in your mind, you're not doing your homework.
Outstanding! I wish I could give you 50 reps.
 
Old 10-01-2008, 03:06 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,993,791 times
Reputation: 332
Edit: Why bother.
 
Old 10-01-2008, 03:08 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post



I see you as being stubborn as much as you do me. But I think you are a bit more than myself. You'll never see yourself being wrong about anything, and its not worth discussing anything with you. You think you have everything and everyone figured out, and lots of people on here agree with you. And I guess thats enough.

On the contrary, I often see myself as being wrong (such as when I believed I could reason with you). I've been wrong before, and will no doubt be wrong again. But, while I don't have all the answers, (nobody does), I DO think I'm far more "right" about illegal immigration than you are....and that's what this forum is about. If 'lots of people on here agree with me', I can't comment on them, nor can I speak for them....but it DOES seem to say SOMETHING...right?

Peace and long life to you.....
 
Old 10-01-2008, 03:11 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Edit: Why bother.
I've been there myself, many times. Why, indeed....
 
Old 10-01-2008, 03:24 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,993,791 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
On the contrary, I often see myself as being wrong (such as when I believed I could reason with you). I've been wrong before, and will no doubt be wrong again. But, while I don't have all the answers, (nobody does), I DO think I'm far more "right" about illegal immigration than you are....and that's what this forum is about. If 'lots of people on here agree with me', I can't comment on them, nor can I speak for them....but it DOES seem to say SOMETHING...right?

Peace and long life to you.....

People, Macmeal. Thats the majority of what I've talked about on this forum.
I dont really give a whole lot to be proved wrong on regarding illegal immigration.

Most of my commentary is on Mexican culture, denying much of the garbage that is said on here. Are you "far more right" than me on that too?

You seem pretty intent on getting the last word, saying how right you were like you did after crisp44 and Mach50 left this forum of paranoia.

I don't care about the last word, you can have it, I just care about my words being misconstrued and twisted.

You say you are much more right on illegal immigration than me, I never defended illegal immigration! I've defended illegal immigrants for being human, I've defended Mexican culture for being called a culture of "corrupt baby-rapists". I TRIED outlining the many similarties between whats going on today with past events involving cultures that arent considered so bad anymore, but that irony is definitely lost. Thats the past, the past is different than today, so it doesnt matter.

And somehow that makes me pro-illegal immigration.

Get your last word Mac, but don't put ****in words in my mouth.

Yeah, lots of people on here agreeing with you does say something. Not about you, but about this forum.
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