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Old 11-21-2008, 12:25 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,935,007 times
Reputation: 1094

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Convert 54 View Post
Kat.....your parents were here legally.........thats the distinction that makes them and you and American.............and that is the distinction the illegals are trying to blur the picture on.................By the way, I am damn glad your a fine American citizen.......................

The issue as regard the 14th and the history of it was direct response to the American war of Rebellion and the efforts of the southern states to subvert and continue to control the electoral process of the south to the exclusion of the freed people of bondage. There was a systematic effort of disenfranchisements directed at a entire people.

The 14th was what codified the RIGHT of an entire people, recently freed from a moral shame, the RIGHT to exist as AMERICAN CITIZENS regardless of birth right...................and it still took well over 140 years for a full realization to a country that our black American brothers and sisters were entitled to the SAME rights and privileges as others......................I dont have a problem understanding the core issue of birth right and the moral high ground that amendment IMPOSED to a society..............

The issue of slavery was a despicable action that never should have been allowed at the onset of our country. OUR PREAMBLE is very clear that we accepted the tenant "that ALL men are created equal" in the eyes of the creator................and OUR black fellow citizens will NOT be relegated to the back of the bus again to accommodate the ILLEGALS who come here.....

I cannot accept that premise.............
Great points and excellent post, Kudos!
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:37 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,116,818 times
Reputation: 2244
Quote:
Originally Posted by ButterBrownBiscuit View Post
I think that JDM was responding in kind to some blatantly racist comments that were aimed at black people. As someone who is also black, I found the remarks equally offensive. Additionally, I don't believe the ebonic comment is valid since (1) most black people don't speak that way and (2) it is still English.

As for English proficiency for immigrants - I personally believe that having so many accomodations, has made it "easy" for many people to continue speaking Spanish. Yes, the children learn in school, but the adults don't always feel as it they have to.

~ButterBrownBiscuit~
well id rather not derail this further with talk of ebonics or BEV (that wonderful outdated term)

but when i refer to the schools, i was not talking about the children. i was talking about night school, adult school. they are tryin to learn english. and some places/gov't agencies do facilitate (spanish)monolingualism. i get that. but you cant paint with such a broad brush.

in CA, immigrants are assimilating more and speakin more english. i have also read articles where immigrants have left LA or CALI, and moved to the south or midwest because they wanted better opportunities and a better environment to assimilate. so this idea that immigrants are resistant to change/assimilation/english proficiency is bogus.

some are, most arent.
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:45 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,116,818 times
Reputation: 2244
Quote:
Originally Posted by katenik View Post
what about resident aliens? my parents, now naturalized citizens, were resident aliens when i was born. i guess i wouldn't be a citizen in your america, which is too bad, because i'm a damned fine citizen.
katenik, you and i rarely agree, but i appreciate your deeper analysis of these issues. thank you.

posters like JDM have a very basic thought process. they are very reactionary. getting them to think beyond a supposed solution is difficult.
dont waste your time with her. even when you guys agree, she finds some reason to argue. pretty big chip she has.

we dont always agree, but here i see where you are coming from. thanks for furthering the conversation productively.
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:06 PM
 
1,309 posts, read 1,279,897 times
Reputation: 437
I understand that you were talking about adults who are in night school to learn English. I also realize that there are many legal immigrants who are doing things the right way. But we also cannot ignore the fact that there are many who are here illegally - they are not doing things the right way and many are not trying to learn English, nor are they encouraged to do so when there are so many Spanish-language services available to them. However, I don't think it's an issue about them being resistant to change or not wanting to assimilate. It is difficult to learn a new language - I doubt that I would be able to at this age - and I believe many of them feel they can function w/o learning English.

~ButterBrownBiscuit~

Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
well id rather not derail this further with talk of ebonics or BEV (that wonderful outdated term)

but when i refer to the schools, i was not talking about the children. i was talking about night school, adult school. they are tryin to learn english. and some places/gov't agencies do facilitate (spanish)monolingualism. i get that. but you cant paint with such a broad brush.

in CA, immigrants are assimilating more and speakin more english. i have also read articles where immigrants have left LA or CALI, and moved to the south or midwest because they wanted better opportunities and a better environment to assimilate. so this idea that immigrants are resistant to change/assimilation/english proficiency is bogus.

some are, most arent.
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,988,229 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by ButterBrownBiscuit View Post
I understand that you were talking about adults who are in night school to learn English. I also realize that there are many legal immigrants who are doing things the right way. But we also cannot ignore the fact that there are many who are here illegally - they are not doing things the right way and many are not trying to learn English, nor are they encouraged to do so when there are so many Spanish-language services available to them. However, I don't think it's an issue about them being resistant to change or not wanting to assimilate. It is difficult to learn a new language - I doubt that I would be able to at this age - and I believe many of them feel they can function w/o learning English.

~ButterBrownBiscuit~
Learning a new language> My wife is Thai and I learned to speak Thai. Not out of nessesity but respect. My wife speaks very good english.
Immigrants if for no other reason should feel compelled to learn the (Common) language of our land. English. The fact that many refuse to learn indicates just how much respect or lack there of they have. Illegals are even more at fault for not learning. As you stated the gov has gone to great lengths to facilitate spanish speakers and to help them learn to speak english. Too much so.
When I visit Thailand I pride myself on being able to communicate in their native language. They are impressed that a foreigner or a Farrang would take the time and effort. If I chose to immigrate to Thailand I would make it a point to learn their written language as well.
There are no real excuses for an immigrant to not learn the language of the host nation. They are simply too ignorant to care.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:43 PM
 
Location: San Diego
33,088 posts, read 30,352,642 times
Reputation: 17890
I have a friend from Africa here on a H1-b. He cannot believe we allow this garbage of everyone speaking this collage of communication, or lack of.
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,910,468 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by ButterBrownBiscuit View Post
I think that JDM was responding in kind to some blatantly racist comments that were aimed at black people. As someone who is also black, I found the remarks equally offensive. Additionally, I don't believe the ebonic comment is valid since (1) most black people don't speak that way and (2) it is still English.

As for English proficiency for immigrants - I personally believe that having so many accomodations, has made it "easy" for many people to continue speaking Spanish. Yes, the children learn in school, but the adults don't always feel as it they have to.

~ButterBrownBiscuit~
I don't understand why it is so racist to mention "ebonics". The poster was being ironic, in mentioning a kind of improper American style of speech...in other words, many American kids need attention on their language skills themselves.

If he had said a style of speech common to a different ethnic group, would that have been "blatantly" racist?

If that's racist, then what's this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
And your point is what? Oh wait, it's a racist jab.

Newsflash: plenty of Americans of all races speak what you consider "ebonics".

That being said, any form of English is better than that gutteral, shrill, choppy jibberish (3rd world ghetto spanish), being crammed down the throats of Americans because a few million illiterate, illegal alien breeders and other trash from SOB are too illiterate, stupid, criminally insane and dysfunctional to obey any form of laws or learn English.


Additionally, the definition of the words: No amnesty, get out, leave, exit, birth control, we don't want or need you in any language seems to escape them. Further adding to reality, self esteem so low they step on it every time they walk. I could go on but I digress.
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:58 PM
 
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
38,803 posts, read 19,669,109 times
Reputation: 35847
The unfortunate effect of accommodating Spanish speakers is that many jobs are requiring bilingual skills, which places non-hispanics at a disadvantage as not many of us have those skills. This will be more of an issue in today's job market as employers are being more selective in hiring decisions.
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Old 11-22-2008, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,910,468 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by msconnie73 View Post
The unfortunate effect of accommodating Spanish speakers is that many jobs are requiring bilingual skills, which places non-hispanics at a disadvantage as not many of us have those skills. This will be more of an issue in today's job market as employers are being more selective in hiring decisions.
Also, many jobs are requiring degrees now, and computer skills. Which places uneducated people and people who are not computer savvy at a disadvantage.

Not everyone who has learned Spanish is Hispanic. Almost every college offers Spanish courses, in addition to other European languages.
There are many non-Hispanic people who have learned Spanish because they wanted to, or they realize its an important skill and puts them at an advantage to others who aren't bilingual.

The job market is survival of the fittest. Having more skills making you more desirable to employers isn't anything new.

You are supposed to have skills that benefit to the business you are working for...it's not supposed to be the business accommodating you.
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Old 11-22-2008, 04:08 PM
 
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
38,803 posts, read 19,669,109 times
Reputation: 35847
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Also, many jobs are requiring degrees now, and computer skills. Which places uneducated people and people who are not computer savvy at a disadvantage.

Not everyone who has learned Spanish is Hispanic. Almost every college offers Spanish courses, in addition to other European languages.

The job market is survival of the fittest. Having more skills making your desirable to employers isn't anything new.

You are supposed to have skills that benefit to the business you are working for...it's not supposed to be the business accommodating you.
I would love to learn another language but have found it to be a challenge due to my hearing disability so the language requirement of some jobs have placed me at a disadvantage. Since I have my degree, this is not really an issue for me longer but for many who do not have degrees, the language requirements place many at a disadvantage.
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