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Old 01-05-2009, 09:48 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,645,907 times
Reputation: 2983

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
He has a good point. Americans cut off our ties to England a long time ago. If Anglos from Europe were coming here illegally I wonder if they would have the support of other Anglos like Mexicans get from Latino Americans here? I don't think it would be even close, especially if they were draining our social network of services meant for Americans.
Cultural differences, once again. Explains 90% of ALL misunderstandings around the world today. One man's "right" is another man's "wrong"...and what's 'normal behavior' in one culture is 'crazy' in another. Culture is powerful, pervasive, and hard to change.

Americans are a 'First World" culture. It was created artificially and voluntarily, over the decades, by immigrants who put aside their differences and became part of the 'new group'. American culture is 'system-oriented'. We think of ourselves as part of a 'system', and see the legal system as our 'framework'. We interact with, and put our trust in, strangers, and those of vastly different religions and ethnicities. America is a 'man-made' culture. Mexican-Americans, like ALL immigrants, learn this over time, when they immigrate here. The lesson may take a generation or more. It's a strange concept for many people.

Mexico itself is still an emergent "Third World" society. In the Third World, one finds his strength and his 'backing' in friends and family. Strangers aren;t to be trusted...the Government isn't "for us", it's "over us"....and the laws aren't fair.

The modern 'First World' culture makes it very difficult for Americans to see each other as 'brothers' or 'fellow tribal members'. We're not an 'identifiable tribe', we're a loose collection. Mexicans...(particularly POOR Mexicans) are much more likely to see themselves as a "group"...with group rights, group 'aims', and a group identity. When new immigrants arrive, it takes time to change culture. When the new immigrants are ILLEGAL, and trying to live 'below the radar', that cultural change is much harder.

English-speaking American citizens don't feel any great bond with English-speakers of other nations. Most anglophone Americans have no ties with England, other than language...The 'tribal angle' just isn't there. New arrivals from Latin America may 'assume' a bond with Hispanic Americans. That bond may not be nearly as strong as they THINK it is, though...because long-established Hispanic Americans see themselves as Americans.

Why do some Hispanic-Americans, in my opinion, seem 'soft' on illegal immigration, when they should 'know better'? Pretty plain to understand, IMHO. They may not be happy about illegals at ALL ( I know many who are VERY upset about it)....but they hate hearing virulent racist remarks hurled at them. It puts people in a very difficult position.

Illegal immigration is a simple matter of trespass and "greed" on the part of many...but you'd never know that today. 90% of the time, on this forum and eslewhere, both sides treat it as a purely 'racial' issue....Meanwhile, those in a position to correct the problem don't treat it as a legal OR a racial issue..they simply refuse to discuss it at all.....and that's a pity.

Last edited by macmeal; 01-05-2009 at 09:59 PM..

 
Old 01-06-2009, 12:51 AM
 
Location: Downey CA
142 posts, read 235,038 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Cultural differences, once again. Explains 90% of ALL misunderstandings around the world today. One man's "right" is another man's "wrong"...and what's 'normal behavior' in one culture is 'crazy' in another. Culture is powerful, pervasive, and hard to change.

Americans are a 'First World" culture. It was created artificially and voluntarily, over the decades, by immigrants who put aside their differences and became part of the 'new group'. American culture is 'system-oriented'. We think of ourselves as part of a 'system', and see the legal system as our 'framework'. We interact with, and put our trust in, strangers, and those of vastly different religions and ethnicities. America is a 'man-made' culture. Mexican-Americans, like ALL immigrants, learn this over time, when they immigrate here. The lesson may take a generation or more. It's a strange concept for many people.

Mexico itself is still an emergent "Third World" society. In the Third World, one finds his strength and his 'backing' in friends and family. Strangers aren;t to be trusted...the Government isn't "for us", it's "over us"....and the laws aren't fair.

The modern 'First World' culture makes it very difficult for Americans to see each other as 'brothers' or 'fellow tribal members'. We're not an 'identifiable tribe', we're a loose collection. Mexicans...(particularly POOR Mexicans) are much more likely to see themselves as a "group"...with group rights, group 'aims', and a group identity. When new immigrants arrive, it takes time to change culture. When the new immigrants are ILLEGAL, and trying to live 'below the radar', that cultural change is much harder.

English-speaking American citizens don't feel any great bond with English-speakers of other nations. Most anglophone Americans have no ties with England, other than language...The 'tribal angle' just isn't there. New arrivals from Latin America may 'assume' a bond with Hispanic Americans. That bond may not be nearly as strong as they THINK it is, though...because long-established Hispanic Americans see themselves as Americans.

Why do some Hispanic-Americans, in my opinion, seem 'soft' on illegal immigration, when they should 'know better'? Pretty plain to understand, IMHO. They may not be happy about illegals at ALL ( I know many who are VERY upset about it)....but they hate hearing virulent racist remarks hurled at them. It puts people in a very difficult position.

Illegal immigration is a simple matter of trespass and "greed" on the part of many...but you'd never know that today. 90% of the time, on this forum and eslewhere, both sides treat it as a purely 'racial' issue....Meanwhile, those in a position to correct the problem don't treat it as a legal OR a racial issue..they simply refuse to discuss it at all.....and that's a pity.
Thank you I belive the same as you do I dont really like illegals much but when I am put in the same category then I have to pick between 2 hard choices so I pick the one that will hurt me the least with is siding with illegals.
 
Old 01-06-2009, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
1,636 posts, read 2,905,153 times
Reputation: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Cultural differences, once again. Explains 90% of ALL misunderstandings around the world today. One man's "right" is another man's "wrong"...and what's 'normal behavior' in one culture is 'crazy' in another. Culture is powerful, pervasive, and hard to change.

Americans are a 'First World" culture. It was created artificially and voluntarily, over the decades, by immigrants who put aside their differences and became part of the 'new group'. American culture is 'system-oriented'. We think of ourselves as part of a 'system', and see the legal system as our 'framework'. We interact with, and put our trust in, strangers, and those of vastly different religions and ethnicities. America is a 'man-made' culture. Mexican-Americans, like ALL immigrants, learn this over time, when they immigrate here. The lesson may take a generation or more. It's a strange concept for many people.

Mexico itself is still an emergent "Third World" society. In the Third World, one finds his strength and his 'backing' in friends and family. Strangers aren;t to be trusted...the Government isn't "for us", it's "over us"....and the laws aren't fair.

The modern 'First World' culture makes it very difficult for Americans to see each other as 'brothers' or 'fellow tribal members'. We're not an 'identifiable tribe', we're a loose collection. Mexicans...(particularly POOR Mexicans) are much more likely to see themselves as a "group"...with group rights, group 'aims', and a group identity. When new immigrants arrive, it takes time to change culture. When the new immigrants are ILLEGAL, and trying to live 'below the radar', that cultural change is much harder.

English-speaking American citizens don't feel any great bond with English-speakers of other nations. Most anglophone Americans have no ties with England, other than language...The 'tribal angle' just isn't there. New arrivals from Latin America may 'assume' a bond with Hispanic Americans. That bond may not be nearly as strong as they THINK it is, though...because long-established Hispanic Americans see themselves as Americans.

Why do some Hispanic-Americans, in my opinion, seem 'soft' on illegal immigration, when they should 'know better'? Pretty plain to understand, IMHO. They may not be happy about illegals at ALL ( I know many who are VERY upset about it)....but they hate hearing virulent racist remarks hurled at them. It puts people in a very difficult position.

Illegal immigration is a simple matter of trespass and "greed" on the part of many...but you'd never know that today. 90% of the time, on this forum and eslewhere, both sides treat it as a purely 'racial' issue....Meanwhile, those in a position to correct the problem don't treat it as a legal OR a racial issue..they simply refuse to discuss it at all.....and that's a pity.

I don't agree with this:
Quote:
New arrivals from Latin America may 'assume' a bond with Hispanic Americans. That bond may not be nearly as strong as they THINK it is, though...because long-established Hispanic Americans see themselves as Americans.
There is a sense of community between newly arrived Hispanics and Hispanic-Americans. At least between Mexicans and Mexican-Americans, Cubans and Cuban-Americans, etc.

At least about as much as there is a bond between Asian-Americans and newly arrived Asians. At least between Chinese and Chinese-Americans, Koreans and Korean-Americans.

While I'm sure there are many Hispanic Americans who only see themselves as Americans, I would say that Hispanic culture is very strong in this country. There are many who identify with Hispanic culture, and yet are some of the proudest Americans out there. You don't necessarily have to sacrifice one to have the other.

I'd safely bet there's a lot more Hispanic-Americans in this country that identify as some kind of Hispanic(Mexican-American/Chicano, Puerto Rican, Cuban-American) than there are who don't.

The only example you provide to compare with Latinos is that of "White" "Anglo" Americans. I don't think that's a fair comparison. It's better to compare Latinos with Asians, and possibly other more recent immigrant groups, at least as far as identity as Americans.

I do, however, agree with this:
Quote:
Why do some Hispanic-Americans, in my opinion, seem 'soft' on illegal immigration, when they should 'know better'? Pretty plain to understand, IMHO. They may not be happy about illegals at ALL ( I know many who are VERY upset about it)....but they hate hearing virulent racist remarks hurled at them. It puts people in a very difficult position.
Very few people want illegal immigration to continue. Some may consider amnesty an option, but the desired end result is the same: not having millions of people living here off the grid.

But maybe many don't see the illegal immigrants themselves the same way. Most of the division comes out of trying to sensationalize the topic. Talking about "Reconquista", a war. And the inevitable attacks on Hispanic culture, that MANY Americans identify with. And to a lesser extent, the racist language it frequently comes down to.

That pisses a lot of people off.

So does the so-called "anti-illegal" crowd feeling they have the right to say who's American and who's unAmerican, based on whether or not you agree with them.

By not trying to find common ground, not trying to tone down the rhetoric, they keep themselves from being taken to seriously by most people.
 
Old 01-06-2009, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,701,482 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
I don't agree with this:
There is a sense of community between newly arrived Hispanics and Hispanic-Americans. At least between Mexicans and Mexican-Americans, Cubans and Cuban-Americans, etc.

At least about as much as there is a bond between Asian-Americans and newly arrived Asians. At least between Chinese and Chinese-Americans, Koreans and Korean-Americans.

While I'm sure there are many Hispanic Americans who only see themselves as Americans, I would say that Hispanic culture is very strong in this country. There are many who identify with Hispanic culture, and yet are some of the proudest Americans out there. You don't necessarily have to sacrifice one to have the other.

I'd safely bet there's a lot more Hispanic-Americans in this country that identify as some kind of Hispanic(Mexican-American/Chicano, Puerto Rican, Cuban-American) than there are who don't.

The only example you provide to compare with Latinos is that of "White" "Anglo" Americans. I don't think that's a fair comparison. It's better to compare Latinos with Asians, and possibly other more recent immigrant groups, at least as far as identity as Americans.

I do, however, agree with this:
Very few people want illegal immigration to continue. Some may consider amnesty an option, but the desired end result is the same: not having millions of people living here off the grid.

But maybe many don't see the illegal immigrants themselves the same way. Most of the division comes out of trying to sensationalize the topic. Talking about "Reconquista", a war. And the inevitable attacks on Hispanic culture, that MANY Americans identify with. And to a lesser extent, the racist language it frequently comes down to.

That pisses a lot of people off.

So does the so-called "anti-illegal" crowd feeling they have the right to say who's American and who's unAmerican, based on whether or not you agree with them.

By not trying to find common ground, not trying to tone down the rhetoric, they keep themselves from being taken to seriously by most people.
America: love it or leave it.

All the more reason to seal of Mexico from the USA----------that will weaken the bond between certain Mexican 'Americans' and Mexican nationals. Why I say that is the cultural bonds between most other Hispanics (Argentines, etc) are much weaker between the old country and here.

'nuff said!
 
Old 01-06-2009, 08:04 AM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,802,950 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
America: love it or leave it.

All the more reason to seal of Mexico from the USA----------that will weaken the bond between certain Mexican 'Americans' and Mexican nationals. Why I say that is the cultural bonds between most other Hispanics (Argentines, etc) are much weaker between the old country and here.

'nuff said!
Can someone express his/her opinion without being accused of hating america? The faux patriotism from you is getting really old.
 
Old 01-06-2009, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,701,482 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
Can someone express his/her opinion without being accused of hating america? The faux patriotism from you is getting really old.
Suffice to say: I am much more patriotic than I was 30 years ago--------------can you claim to be patriotic to the USA above any other nation?
 
Old 01-06-2009, 10:33 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,645,907 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post

The only example you provide to compare with Latinos is that of "White" "Anglo" Americans. I don't think that's a fair comparison. It's better to compare Latinos with Asians, and possibly other more recent immigrant groups, at least as far as identity as Americans.

, .
I'm not sure how you arrived at the above. My whole point has always been that Americans aren't by any means all "White Anglos", (despite some who would insist on that), that the very definition of "American" involves the sublimation of ancestral cultures and the emphasis on the new "American" identity.

Of COURSE there's a Hispanic culture, and of COURSE any Hispanic is going to feel some bond there. This is true of ALL groups in the US...especially anyone who had a grandparent, etc, with the "old ways" and the "old accent". Hispanics in this regard are no different from anyone else.

The problem arises with the MASSIVE recent rise in illegal immigration, something really quite unprecedented in US History. THAT is the 'wild card' and THAT is what's causing the controversy. Comparing illegal Hispanic immigrants' relations with American Hispanics, to the situation between Asian-Americans and "their" immigrant newcomers?......hmmm. That's a stretch, IMHO. I'll give you HALF credit there. There is some common bond, of COURSE....but there really is no parallel in other groups for the outspoken militance of MEChA and similar groups in pushing the agenda of any other group of immigrants....NOR do other new immigrant groups enjoy the unqualified support (even if they're LEGAL) of high-ranking American officials. When the mayor of a large American city (LA) speaks of illegals as "we" (as in 'we clean your toilets'), that pretty much 'draws a line'.....and it's pretty hard to argue that this isn't divisive. And I know of no other immigrant group to which this applies.

Otherwise, I enjoyed your post and found much there of interest, We mostly disagree on interpretation of a few points.
 
Old 01-06-2009, 03:56 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,802,950 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Suffice to say: I am much more patriotic than I was 30 years ago--------------can you claim to be patriotic to the USA above any other nation?
Yes i can, but i wonder how many flag pins you own? That's a sign of patriotism to some of you right wingers isn't it?
 
Old 01-06-2009, 04:20 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,979 posts, read 30,230,881 times
Reputation: 17781
It would be interesting to see what side people choose if something were to happen to trigger a war with Mexico. The same atmosphere to some back during the US civil war between North and South.
 
Old 01-06-2009, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,075 posts, read 1,780,901 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
America: love it or leave it.

All the more reason to seal of Mexico from the USA----------that will weaken the bond between certain Mexican 'Americans' and Mexican nationals. Why I say that is the cultural bonds between most other Hispanics (Argentines, etc) are much weaker between the old country and here.

'nuff said!
Think AZBear got it right on this 1. Think i can figure out who is more American (legal or illegal),but of course im 1 of those anti-illegal people!! Also think macmeal hit the nail on the head. Culture is 90% of the difference.
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