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Old 01-08-2009, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,821,083 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
How is Americans immigrating to Mexico realistic? My point is, if there was a country with better opportunity than the United States within walking distance, I'm sure a lot of America's poorest people would immigrate there in a heart beat.
But unfortunately, America's as good as it gets. Poor Americans don't illegally immigrate any where, because it doesn't benefit them to. But if it did, they would. For someone to say "Americans wouldn't do that!" have no reason to say that. Americans arent in the position to. But if the poor were leaving the United States to a neighboring richer country, do you really think ALL of them would do it legally?
Just like if all the people from Europe and Asia that populated this country didn't have to cross a vast ocean and get into the United States via a port, you'd see massive numbers of illegals from there as well. They only did it legally because it wasn't worth the chance sneaking across the Atlantic in a rowboat. Not because they were "better people".
In fact, many STILL come illegally from across the world!


You took my commentary, and turned it into some kind of tired argument that "Americans aren't immigrating to Mexico!" Yeah, no shi-! What does your point have to do with mine?
We are obviously not on the same page. I'm saying tomato, and you're saying grape. No need to continue this nonsense.

 
Old 01-08-2009, 07:26 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that in general, Americans are better people than Mexicans?
Certainly not...this is a theoretical discussion. No need to get 'testy'. What I'm saying is what I've always said..."culture is everything". We'll be seeing more of this in the next century, all over the world, in ways that you and I probably can't imagine.

America and Mexico have two different cultures. Not NEARLY as different as Canada vs New Guinea.....or India vs Korea....or Norway vs Paraguay...but 'different' nonetheless.

Neither Americans nor Mexicans are "better" people, they're simply culturally different. To the American point of view, Americans do things in a way that "makes more sense" than what Mexicans do....and vice-versa. To Mexican eyes, their culture "makes sense", and America looks "silly" or "misguided".

American society is almost TOTALLY 'artificial' and almost TOTALLY dependent upon 'rule of law'. We're far too diverse and varied to get along on just our "good intentions". Our society is based on the supremacy of Law over family ties, over ethnicity, over everything.

Mexican society values "family" loyalty and ethnic ties, which are seen as FAR more important than any law. They're perfectly justified in feeling this way, too....because the laws there are NOT written by the people, nor to benefit the people.

Mexicans are not "worse" than Americans at all....they're just not as aware of American culture as Americans are. When illegals come here, they don't "act" like Americans because they are not. Americans in Mexico wouldn't understand how the 'system works', either. They'd have to learn, over time.

This forum is MOSTLY about illegals and their problems in America (not the LEAST of which is the fact that they ARE illegals....that's a very big 'no-no' here). The 'problems' we're discussing here are in relation to an 'American' setting.

IF large numbers of foreigners moved into Mexico, no doubt they'd have problems too...and people there would be discussing THOSE problems from a Mexican viewpoint..(because that's where the problem would be taking place).

The US society is an almost totally abstract legal concept, not an ethnicity or a racial subgroup. Those who fail to understand this will have problems fitting in. Those who are here illegally will have MORE problems, because the very fact that they're here illegally starts them off with a 'violation' of our society before they even unpack.

Has nothingt to do with "good" people or "bad" people...it's all about culture and behaving appropriately. "When in Rome" says nothing about whether Romans are good...or bad. It just tells you what's appropriate behavior.

Thanks for your post....
 
Old 01-08-2009, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,821,083 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Certainly not...this is a theoretical discussion. No need to get 'testy'. What I'm saying is what I've always said..."culture is everything". We'll be seeing more of this in the next century, all over the world, in ways that you and I probably can't imagine.

America and Mexico have two different cultures. Not NEARLY as different as Canada vs New Guinea.....or India vs Korea....or Norway vs Paraguay...but 'different' nonetheless.

Neither Americans nor Mexicans are "better" people, they're simply culturally different. To the American point of view, Americans do things in a way that "makes more sense" than what Mexicans do....and vice-versa. To Mexican eyes, their culture "makes sense", and America looks "silly" or "misguided".

American society is almost TOTALLY 'artificial' and almost TOTALLY dependent upon 'rule of law'. We're far too diverse and varied to get along on just our "good intentions". Our society is based on the supremacy of Law over family ties, over ethnicity, over everything.

Mexican society values "family" loyalty and ethnic ties, which are seen as FAR more important than any law. They're perfectly justified in feeling this way, too....because the laws there are NOT written by the people, nor to benefit the people.

Mexicans are not "worse" than Americans at all....they're just not as aware of American culture as Americans are. When illegals come here, they don't "act" like Americans because they are not. Americans in Mexico wouldn't understand how the 'system works', either. They'd have to learn, over time.

This forum is MOSTLY about illegals and their problems in America (not the LEAST of which is the fact that they ARE illegals....that's a very big 'no-no' here). The 'problems' we're discussing here are in relation to an 'American' setting.

IF large numbers of foreigners moved into Mexico, no doubt they'd have problems too...and people there would be discussing THOSE problems from a Mexican viewpoint..(because that's where the problem would be taking place).

The US society is an almost totally abstract legal concept, not an ethnicity or a racial subgroup. Those who fail to understand this will have problems fitting in. Those who are here illegally will have MORE problems, because the very fact that they're here illegally starts them off with a 'violation' of our society before they even unpack.

Has nothingt to do with "good" people or "bad" people...it's all about culture and behaving appropriately. "When in Rome" says nothing about whether Romans are good...or bad. It just tells you what's appropriate behavior.

Thanks for your post....
Thank you for another eloquent post. Sadly, it will fly over the heads of many, like a bird soaring aimlessly in the sky.
 
Old 01-08-2009, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,637,375 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Thank you for another eloquent post. Sadly, it will fly over the heads of many, like a bird soaring aimlessly in the sky.
The pro illegal fans are on thin ice in the eyes of public opinion as it is...........
 
Old 01-08-2009, 07:39 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,620,778 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Thank you for another eloquent post. Sadly, it will fly over the heads of many, like a bird soaring aimlessly in the sky.
Thank you for the descriptive, moving 'bird' post. I'm sure others will be less supportive....probably compare my words to the "south end of a rabid north bound dog"....or something. I'll go with the 'eloquent soaring bird' comparison....
 
Old 01-08-2009, 07:52 PM
 
1,448 posts, read 2,659,923 times
Reputation: 690
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
How is Americans immigrating to Mexico realistic? My point is, if there was a country with better opportunity than the United States within walking distance, I'm sure a lot of America's poorest people would immigrate there in a heart beat.
But unfortunately, America's as good as it gets. Poor Americans don't illegally immigrate any where, because it doesn't benefit them to. But if it did, they would. For someone to say "Americans wouldn't do that!" have no reason to say that. Americans arent in the position to. But if the poor were leaving the United States to a neighboring richer country, do you really think ALL of them would do it legally?
Just like if all the people from Europe and Asia that populated this country didn't have to cross a vast ocean and get into the United States via a port, you'd see massive numbers of illegals from there as well. They only did it legally because it wasn't worth the chance sneaking across the Atlantic in a rowboat. Not because they were "better people".
In fact, many STILL come illegally from across the world!


You took my commentary, and turned it into some kind of tired argument that "Americans aren't immigrating to Mexico!" Yeah, no shi-! What does your point have to do with mine?
Benicars point is Mexico and their people are freaking hypocrites. Checkmate.
 
Old 01-08-2009, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,449 posts, read 22,975,059 times
Reputation: 7246
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Yet Mexico is still 'poor enough' that many of their citizens feel the (immoral) 'need' to try to come here illegally------------never mind that starvation is no longer a problem SOB. If anything; obesity is an issue there.
Having seen plenty of Mexico first hand I can say one has to keep in mind Gini coefficients when reading statistics on average income based on GDP. Mexico has a higher degree of economic inequality than let's say Uruguay or Costa Rica.

Quote:
Actually: 'Second World' used to refer to the old Communist bloc.
Most Second World/middle income countries are former Communist countries in Eastern Europe, but not all. Argentina would now fall into the "Second World" category, as opposed to the "First World" category that it used to occupy, because of some pretty bad governments.

Last edited by majoun; 01-08-2009 at 10:20 PM..
 
Old 01-08-2009, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,637,375 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
Having seen plenty of Mexico first hand I can say one has to keep in mind Gini coefficients when reading statistics on average income based on GDP. Mexico has a higher degree of economic inequality than let's say Uruguay or Costa Rica.
Again: Mexico's woes are not our problem............that nation needs to grow up.
 
Old 01-08-2009, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,449 posts, read 22,975,059 times
Reputation: 7246
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Again: Mexico's woes are not our problem

That was not what I was talking about. I was talking about if one does not take the great economic inequality in Mexico into account, Mexico on paper according to income as a share of GDP would be "Second World". Not that many people would consider Mexico "Second World" as a whole. Mexico is considered a Third World country almost universally, including by Mexicans, although parts of northern Mexico could be considered Second World while Chiapas, Oaxaca, Campeche, etc. could be considered Fourth World just like Guatemala next door. What does that have to do with the US?
 
Old 01-08-2009, 10:27 PM
 
1,435 posts, read 3,508,091 times
Reputation: 524
Quote:
Chiapas, Oaxaca, Campeche, etc. could be considered Fourth World just like Guatemala next door.
I wonder if most illegal Mexican immigrants in the U.S are originally from Chiapas, Oaxaca, and Campeche.
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