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Old 01-12-2009, 06:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by the one View Post
they flee persecution. im sure the woman you referenced enjoys some of her somali culture, even while seeking asylum.
You may be right. AS she peeks through her curtains avoiding those from 'back home' who'd come to her location, seeking to impose upon her 'enforced genital multilation'...or death for 'blasphemy against Islam'...she probably enjoys an occasional Somali musical CD....or sends out to a Somali restaurant for food (since she probably can't GO out too often).

But she's not fleeing her 'culture', certainly not....just her society.

Good point.
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Old 01-12-2009, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Hm...
Organized Crime problem
Corruption
division among class

....yeah, definitely classic signs of collapse. We definitely never experienced that as a country.
You're wrong....(I know, sarcasm..)...we certainly HAVE experienced those things....and, in the characteristic American fashion (part of the 'culture' of all assimilated Americans), we "Got Mad" about these things, we "Got Disgusted" with the people DOING them, and we FOUGHT BACK. We put the "Crooks" in jail (and made movies about it)...we "poked fun" at the snobs, and we refused to accept 'class divisions'.

The Mexican culture is highly fatalistic. Many Mexican authors have commented on this. Mexican fatalisim says that "bad things happen...there's nothing that can be done about it....and the rich will ALWAYS be rich, and ditto for the poor". In other words, in traditional Mexico, life "is what it is"...period. BIG difference with American culture, which isn't content to leave ANYTHING 'as it is' for very long....

Seriously, not to argue with you...but take the case of Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich...he's a "pariah" here...he's RUINED. Even his fellow 'crooks' in office feel he went too far, and now he's OUT..and probably headed for 'The Big House'.

If that happened in Mexico, Blagojevich would LIKELY be considered a 'sharp operator'. He'd probably just be seen as excercising his 'privilege' as Governor, and his troubles may even make him a sort of 'anti-hero'...might even have a 'corrido' or two written about him. (Actually, there WAS a Mexican state governor prosecuted for corruption some years back...Nuevo Leon, I think (?)...he went WAY overboard, and outraged even the tolerant Mexicans. As I recall, he had 8 relatives in the payroll doing nothing (two of them infants), 12 'new' ranches, numerous collector cars, and about a dozen airplanes...all this on a 'Governor's salary'. Made Blagojevich look like a 'Boy Scout". The Mexican system tolerates corruption, but THIS guy was a HOG....and he reached the limits of their 'tolerance')

ALL human societies have corruption...but theres a big difference as to whether corruption is 'rooted out and held up to disgrace'....or tolerated as inevitable, given a 'wink', and treated as a joke. That's an example of cultural differences.

There's an old joke about 'the more tasty a country's cuisine, the more corrupt its government'...and I can't recall the last time I ever ate at a Canadian restaurant.

Last edited by macmeal; 01-12-2009 at 07:06 PM..
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
You may be right. AS she peeks through her curtains avoiding those from 'back home' who'd come to her location, seeking to impose upon her 'enforced genital multilation'...or death for 'blasphemy against Islam'...she probably enjoys an occasional Somali musical CD....or sends out to a Somali restaurant for food (since she probably can't GO out too often).

But she's not fleeing her 'culture', certainly not....just her society.

Good point.

I like to emphasize that difference between culture and society.
Regarding Mexico's government's corruption, that is due to a(n alleged) tolerance of corruption by Mexico's society, not it's culture.

What you describe by the Somali's isn't necessarily part of their culture, but of their society's interpretation of that culture.

Example, the Taliban regime wasn't evil because it's religion of Islam, but because of the society it created for it's muslims.
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
I like to emphasize that difference between culture and society.
Regarding Mexico's government's corruption, that is due to a(n alleged) tolerance of corruption by Mexico's society, not it's culture.

What you describe by the Somali's isn't necessarily part of their culture, but of their society's interpretation of that culture.

Example, the Taliban regime wasn't evil because it's religion of Islam, but because of the society it created for it's muslims.
Well.....OK....but at LEAST, she's still in some kind of trouble, right? With her culture, or her society.....or just with 'the folks back home'. SOMEBODY'S making things tough on her, and it's not the Dutch.....

But seriously, if you can explain the difference between a country's culture and its society, I for one will read it with interest. Aren't they sort of two parts of a whole 'description'? Sort of like 'weather' and 'climate'?
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:13 PM
 
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Quote:
There's an old joke about 'the more tasty a country's cuisine, the more corrupt its government'...and I can't recall the last time I ever ate at a Canadian restaurant.
LOL, Brazil and China have extremely corrupt governments and they have some of the best cuisine in the world.
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
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Originally Posted by Jeff Jarrett View Post
LOL, Brazil and China have extremely corrupt governments and they have some of the best cuisine in the world.
There may be something to that adage.

English food comes to mind..........and, are Scandinavian noted for their food? Lutefisk: no comment
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff Jarrett View Post
LOL, Brazil and China have extremely corrupt governments and they have some of the best cuisine in the world.
"HEAVEN is a place where
The French are the Chefs
The Italians are the lovers
The British are the police
The Germans are the mechanics
And the Swiss keep things on schedule...

"HELL is where
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians keep things on schedule
And the Germans are the police".......
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Well.....OK....but at LEAST, she's still in some kind of trouble, right? With her culture, or her society.....or just with 'the folks back home'. SOMEBODY'S making things tough on her, and it's not the Dutch.....

But seriously, if you can explain the difference between a country's culture and its society, I for one will read it with interest. Aren't they sort of two parts of a whole 'description'? Sort of like 'weather' and 'climate'?
Well, I can only try to explain what I'm saying using an example.

Let's look at Afghanistan.
I don't think the culture could have changed that much in between being a republic, being invaded by the Soviets, being under the rule of the Taliban, and being occupied by the U.S.
But I'm sure the society went through many drastic changes in that relatively short time.

The Somalian girl you talk about..let's make her an Afghan girl, who at some point, probably suffered at the hands of Islamic extremists(taliban) too.

I'm sure the kind of trouble the Afghan girl was in changed as the society did. But did the culture really change? Or did a society in power that told them how to practice their culture change?
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Old 01-12-2009, 08:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Well, I can only try to explain what I'm saying using an example.

Let's look at Afghanistan.
I don't think the culture could have changed that much in between being a republic, being invaded by the Soviets, being under the rule of the Taliban, and being occupied by the U.S.
But I'm sure the society went through many drastic changes in that relatively short time.

The Somalian girl you talk about..let's make her an Afghan girl, who at some point, probably suffered at the hands of Islamic extremists(taliban) too.

I'm sure the kind of trouble the Afghan girl was in changed as the society did. But did the culture really change? Or did a society in power that told them how to practice their culture change?
I'm not sure Afghan girls have EVER been in any kind of 'good' position..ever. If you look back in history, women in Afganistan have never had what you and I would call 'equal rights' at all. Under the Soviets, they had a brief affair with 'western attire' and women were able to hold SOME jobs..and even enroll in school....but that was just a 'blip' in history, Basically, Afghan women are subservient to males, and this is accepted as 'the way it is'.

The Afghans have NEVER been conquered. They 'whipped' all early invaders (or absorbed them)...they totallyhumilated the "Mighty British" who attempted to invade them from India (Kipling wrote of the "Terrible Afghans" and their slaughter of the British). The modern Soviet military was sent "scurrying" for home in total disarray....they couldn't 'whip' the Afghans, either.

Afghans are like "The Apaches of Asia"...some of the world's most tenacious fighters. But how do their men treat their women? I suppose you could say, "That's THEIR business"...and it is. But I don't think you or I would 'approve'.

Cultures are persistent, and govern most of daily life. They can be "learned", and they can be changed...but only if the person wants to. And so far, the Afghans see no reason to change.

I wouldn't advise ANYONE to try to change their minds. But I STILL don't see any sharp division between a place's culture, and its society. I think a place's society is a reflection of its culture.

SHORT ANSWER:...you could TRY to put any kind of government you wanted to in "place" over Afghanistan (good luck !)..you could make it a democracy, a socialist state, pure capitalist, or communist dictatorship....or none of the above. But it would STILL be a rough, tough, harsh place, where "Men are men", women keep quiet, and insults and attacks on 'family honor' are settled quickly and brutally, in keeping with the local "codes of honor". The culture would make it unlikely that Afghanistan would be any other sort of society for a long, LONG time...until people decided to change their own ways of living.

Last edited by macmeal; 01-12-2009 at 08:16 PM..
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 37,422,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'm not sure Afghan girls have EVER been in any kind of 'good' position..ever. If you look back in history, women in Afganistan have never had what you and I would call 'equal rights' at all. Under the Soviets, they had a brief affair with 'western attire' and women were able to hold SOME jobs..and even enroll in school....but that was just a 'blip' in history, Basically, Afghan women are subservient to males, and this is accepted as 'the way it is'.

The Afghans have NEVER been conquered. They 'whipped' all early invaders (or absorbed them)...they totallyhumilated the "Mighty British" who attempted to invade them from India (Kipling wrote of the "Terrible Afghans" and their slaughter of the British). The modern Soviet military was sent "scurrying" for home in total disarray....they couldn't 'whip' the Afghans, either.

Afghans are like "The Apaches of Asia"...some of the world's most tenacious fighters. But how do their men treat their women? I suppose you could say, "That's THEIR business"...and it is. But I don't think you or I would 'approve'.

Cultures are persistent, and govern most of daily life. They can be "learned", and they can be changed...but only if the person wants to. And so far, the Afghans see no reason to change.

I wouldn't advise ANYONE to try to change their minds. But I STILL don't see any sharp division between a place's culture, and its society. I think a place's society is a reflection of its culture.

SHORT ANSWER:...you could TRY to put any kind of government you wanted to in "place" over Afghanistan (good luck !)..you could make it a democracy, a socialist state, pure capitalist, or communist dictatorship....or none of the above. But it would STILL be a rough, tough, harsh place, where "Men are men", women keep quiet, and insults and attacks on 'family honor' are settled quickly and brutally, in keeping with the local "codes of honor". The culture would make it unlikely that Afghanistan would be any other sort of society for a long, LONG time...until people decided to change their own ways of living.
Something else to consider: there is little or nothing of 'interest' in Afghanistan (oil, decent climate, etc.) to a more powerful nation-----------otherwise the Afghanis would have been decimated and/or at least placed on 'reservations' long ago. Harsh analysis but realpolitik
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