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Old 01-13-2009, 07:06 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,107,840 times
Reputation: 2244

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this is for any legal counsel, court appointed or otherwise. but i dont think there is court appointed legal counsel in immigrtion proceedings. and it is about non citizens, not just illegals. many scenarios can arise where people will be unjustly dealt with because of some unscrupulous, greedy lawyer. the situation i laid out speaks to that.
i think lots of people are not looking at how those who are rightfully here will be denied appeals and a day in court. its not black and white folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyG View Post
It is interesting that anyone feels the need to supply counsel at all. This is at the cost of taxpayers; why?

The burden of proof for a non-U.S. citizen, especially one that has so found themselves onto U.S. soil without clear documentation of why they are present and under what legal authority they are present, should clearly have the burden.

If they cannot provide this information; back to their homeland and then challenge the deportation from home. If they so have the finances, then they can obtain legal counsel. This is way any sane country would deal with this.

One does not require a lawyer; either you went through some process before you arrived in the U.S. that gave you legal right to be in the U.S., or you didn't. If you didn't, then what is there to challenge; why have a lawyer competent or otherwise? It isn't really so complicated.

Why we guilt ourselves into providing legal counsel at tax payer's expense to non legal residents, under this situation; is well beyond me. If someone is facing a criminal prosecution that involves jail time; it would be ideal, if borders were solidly controlled to restore them to their homeland, but we can't do this as the border is not secure and the individual will be back doing more crime; so legal counsel and jail expenses are borne by the tax payer. Yet another example of where the federal government's lack of control over the border yields expenses to citizens.
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Old 01-14-2009, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Doonan, QLD
103 posts, read 162,891 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
this is for any legal counsel, court appointed or otherwise. but i dont think there is court appointed legal counsel in immigrtion proceedings. and it is about non citizens, not just illegals. many scenarios can arise where people will be unjustly dealt with because of some unscrupulous, greedy lawyer. the situation i laid out speaks to that.
i think lots of people are not looking at how those who are rightfully here will be denied appeals and a day in court. its not black and white folks.
Okay, good enough; having been a naturalized citizen myself, born in New Zealand, I know well what we went through. There was never a question as to whether we were in the U.S. legally, the processes were very specific and clear. Either you had a valid visa issued by the INS or not. So I'm not sure where an unscrupulous attorney comes in. Your argument and example is not realistic, nor does it represent the vast majority of cases. I'd be thrilled to let people challenge cases of deportation based upon their reasonable belief that they hold a valid visa with them supplying the information thereof.

This is not about a situation as you discuss above; things are pretty black and white; valid visa or not? Why make this a shade of gray? There are some things in life that are actually binary. It is most interesting as people like to try to add a manner of conditions, if ands or buts about it; but the reality are, it is remarkably simple. Valid visa or not? If not, good bye. If so, stay, enjoy the country and do what your visa allows.
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,868,601 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyG View Post
Okay, good enough; having been a naturalized citizen myself, born in New Zealand, I know well what we went through. There was never a question as to whether we were in the U.S. legally, the processes were very specific and clear. Either you had a valid visa issued by the INS or not. So I'm not sure where an unscrupulous attorney comes in. Your argument and example is not realistic, nor does it represent the vast majority of cases. I'd be thrilled to let people challenge cases of deportation based upon their reasonable belief that they hold a valid visa with them supplying the information thereof.

This is not about a situation as you discuss above; things are pretty black and white; valid visa or not? Why make this a shade of gray? There are some things in life that are actually binary. It is most interesting as people like to try to add a manner of conditions, if ands or buts about it; but the reality are, it is remarkably simple. Valid visa or not? If not, good bye. If so, stay, enjoy the country and do what your visa allows.
Thank you! Two words -- personal accountability. If these ‘pending’ immigrants are legally in the country, they should have no problem inquiring about the status of their case to ensure that all requisite paperwork is in order. How difficult is it to pick up the phone and call Immigration?

My ex is a naturalized citizen, and he was in constant contact with the former INS to avoid any ‘surprises’ or issues with his case. I guess it’s much easier to sit back and do nothing and blame an unscrupulous lawyer, rather than accept responsibility for your adult life. They need to grow up.
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Old 01-14-2009, 12:45 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,107,840 times
Reputation: 2244
it does not always go as smoothly as one would think. i know people who have been caught up in situations that almost resulted in their deportation, by not fault of their own. the reality is that there are greedy lawyers who will look to take advantage of people.

how difficult is it to call? try it yourself.

this is one protection that people who are here legally, but not citizens, need. a lot of times people place their trust in lawyers, and sometimes those lawyers dont even know all the intricacies of the law. what forms apply to whom. what dead lines are for what people. asylum v. conditional. imigration law is not cut and dry like most of you think. its a lengthy process. and you can get tripped up along the way. people should have an out if they are inadequately represented.

but if you guys dont get it, wait till you know someone who this has happened to. its really sucks. it creates more paperwork. one little mistake can put you in the back of the line.

my only hope is that they add some sort of appeals process where a judge can hear certain cases, not for illegals, but for those who are in the process of legalizing but had inadequate counsel. its funny you guys cant even give that up. such extremism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Thank you! Two words -- personal accountability. If these ‘pending’ immigrants are legally in the country, they should have no problem inquiring about the status of their case to ensure that all requisite paperwork is in order. How difficult is it to pick up the phone and call Immigration?

My ex is a naturalized citizen, and he was in constant contact with the former INS to avoid any ‘surprises’ or issues with his case. I guess it’s much easier to sit back and do nothing and blame an unscrupulous lawyer, rather than accept responsibility for your adult life. They need to grow up.
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Old 01-14-2009, 01:23 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,726,417 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Thank you! Two words -- personal accountability. If these ‘pending’ immigrants are legally in the country, they should have no problem inquiring about the status of their case to ensure that all requisite paperwork is in order. How difficult is it to pick up the phone and call Immigration?

My ex is a naturalized citizen, and he was in constant contact with the former INS to avoid any ‘surprises’ or issues with his case. I guess it’s much easier to sit back and do nothing and blame an unscrupulous lawyer, rather than accept responsibility for your adult life. They need to grow up.
I don't get it. Why would someone not keep a very close eye on something as important as this? There are web sites to offer advice to people who are in the process of becoming citizens and I suspect there are any number of groups that can offer help if needed. I would be double checking things every step of the way.

In all honesty, I doubt that many of these cases involve people who are here legally being deported. Illegal aliens abuse our legal system when they come here. Then when they are in danger of being deported, they make full use of the very same legal system to delay the process for as long as possible. Anybody remember Elvira Arellano? She was here for years, filing one appeal after another as I recall. We have people from Honduras who came here after Hurricane Mitch in 1998 and have never left! Every time their visas run out, they have some new excuse as to why they need to be allowed to stay in the US. No good deed shall go unpunished, huh? People have abused this system for years, it needs to be changed.
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Old 01-14-2009, 01:29 PM
 
1,368 posts, read 1,634,634 times
Reputation: 1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post

..... wait till you know someone who this has happened to. ...... its funny you guys cant even give that up. such extremism.
Ok, we'll wait...(sound of crickets chirping)

"Extremism" is why America is becoming intolerant:
Extreme abuse of immigration, multiple deportations, crimes, health and social services.

It is "extreme" when millions of US visitors overstay their visas and make "jack-pot babies" to invade, corrupt and pollute..yes, I said "POLLUTE" ... the United States of America.
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Old 01-14-2009, 02:54 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,726,417 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
ok, but how is having inadequate counsel the fault of the person trying to correct a situation(legalize themselves)

this pertains to not only illegals, but all non citizens.

lets say that i as an argentine was getting all my papers in order to legalize, and because my ditz lawyer screwed up some paper work, deadlines past (which i thought were met) and i was ordered deported. i would not be able to fight this order of deportation, even tho my lawyer is at fault.

that dont seem very fair. if this is going to stay like this, there should be some appeals, or avenues to ensure that people who do have a substantiated case are able to navigate the legal system and come to a satisfactory understanding with the gov't. imagine this happening to you. you think you are doing everything right, but come to find out your lawyer messed up. what legal recourse do you have?
On further reflection.............I fear this is a situation where abuse by some people has resulted in nobody getting another hearing because of bad legal representation. I agree this is not fair to people who are legally in the country and have had mistakes made by their lawyers. I don't know how often this happens, but in these situations (and I suspect an experienced immigration judge can fairly promptly tell which cases these are), it would make sense to allow the noncitizen another chance to get everything in order. This ruling sounds a bit draconian, even to me and I believe it is a response to the rampant abuse of the legal system by illegal aliens who by law should be returned to their home countries. The only thing I can suggest would be to contact your congress creatures with your vaild concerns and ask that a second look be taken at this.
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Old 01-14-2009, 03:12 PM
 
Location: San Diego
33,010 posts, read 30,288,199 times
Reputation: 17830
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
On further reflection.............I fear this is a situation where abuse by some people has resulted in nobody getting another hearing because of bad legal representation. I agree this is not fair to people who are legally in the country and have had mistakes made by their lawyers. I don't know how often this happens, but in these situations (and I suspect an experienced immigration judge can fairly promptly tell which cases these are), it would make sense to allow the noncitizen another chance to get everything in order. This ruling sounds a bit draconian, even to me and I believe it is a response to the rampant abuse of the legal system by illegal aliens who by law should be returned to their home countries. The only thing I can suggest would be to contact your congress creatures with your vaild concerns and ask that a second look be taken at this.
That's exactly how it has been, if anyone needs a scapegoat as to why this is a new ruling they can blame the hundreds of thousands of Illegals who abused it.


Now, where's that hammer.
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Old 01-14-2009, 03:21 PM
 
1,370 posts, read 1,941,482 times
Reputation: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyG View Post
It is interesting that anyone feels the need to supply counsel at all. This is at the cost of taxpayers; why?

The burden of proof for a non-U.S. citizen, especially one that has so found themselves onto U.S. soil without clear documentation of why they are present and under what legal authority they are present, should clearly have the burden.

If they cannot provide this information; back to their homeland and then challenge the deportation from home. If they so have the finances, then they can obtain legal counsel. This is way any sane country would deal with this.

One does not require a lawyer; either you went through some process before you arrived in the U.S. that gave you legal right to be in the U.S., or you didn't. If you didn't, then what is there to challenge; why have a lawyer competent or otherwise? It isn't really so complicated.

Why we guilt ourselves into providing legal counsel at tax payer's expense to non legal residents, under this situation; is well beyond me. If someone is facing a criminal prosecution that involves jail time; it would be ideal, if borders were solidly controlled to restore them to their homeland, but we can't do this as the border is not secure and the individual will be back doing more crime; so legal counsel and jail expenses are borne by the tax payer. Yet another example of where the federal government's lack of control over the border yields expenses to citizens.
Absolutely agree.

The processes for achieving and maintaining legal status within the US are admittedly time consuming and expensive. But the "legal" routes are there. They are there for a reason. If someone chooses to try to beat the system then they should responsible for the costs and the fall-out when USCIS catches up with them.

Granted, every case is different, but if someone is here illegally through a visa overstay or simply illegal entry then that's their own problem - US taxpayers should not be paying for such a person's legal expenses.

I would also agree with all who say that PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY comes into it.

If you can't be bothered to familiarise yourself with the processes and throw everything into an attorney's hands without knowing beforehand what that attorney should be doing then you're a fool.
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Old 01-14-2009, 03:31 PM
 
1,370 posts, read 1,941,482 times
Reputation: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Thank you! Two words -- personal accountability. If these ‘pending’ immigrants are legally in the country, they should have no problem inquiring about the status of their case to ensure that all requisite paperwork is in order. How difficult is it to pick up the phone and call Immigration?

My ex is a naturalized citizen, and he was in constant contact with the former INS to avoid any ‘surprises’ or issues with his case. I guess it’s much easier to sit back and do nothing and blame an unscrupulous lawyer, rather than accept responsibility for your adult life. They need to grow up.
Exactly
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