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Old 01-25-2008, 08:08 AM
 
79 posts, read 96,972 times
Reputation: 12

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
No. It's the official term. It means "non-citizen."

What kind of world have we (in the West) become? Where actions and intents are glossed over, rationalized and sometimes ignored, but God help us if we use a word that offends someone. Orwellian to say the least.
i'm afraid i can't understand, english is not my native language. Could you please explain and/or reformulate?
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Old 01-25-2008, 09:45 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
i strongly agree with you, when you say "The people of Europe ALSO discuss OUR guilt, as well--but are strangely silent on their OWN."
They have at least as much guilt in their past.

And i'm happy when i read you "Here in America, we 'discuss' our societal guilt." that means you know your guilts. Not everyone on this forum knows.
For example, when i read " Personally, I'm totally against ANYONE who is in America with NO right to be here because they sneaked in! I'm also FOR far MORE stringent rules and requirements for those WANTING legal American citizenship." by SKYTRIPPER. Do you agree with that point of view?

You know, i'm from European, African, Arawak (native American), Indian (of India), Chinese,... heritage, and since i have one ancestor from Europe (who was surely a colonisator) i reproach to Europe his past. But, i'm in my mind for the immigration of anyone in Europe (just like european did it everywhere in the world) and in USA.

OK.

Ozark-Baby, i did not say USA stole lands from Mexico, but from the "native american"

DontH8Me :
i currently live in France, so i know what i'm talking about. People often say "Américain/Américaine" but it's not the official word taught in school nowadays.
i have NO ANIMOSITY against citizens of the USA, only against those who want to "close the frontiers", like Skystripper. i've been to USA, and there are open-minded people, i have nothing against them, they are friendly to other cultures, even when those other cultures come into USA. People like Skystripper would like people of other cultures stay in the country they was born.

And you must live in the depths of USA to say that "the English language is far "wealthier" than the French"... this sentence made me laugh.

OK
Cousinsal : Think what you want to think. Tell me, are you against immigration into the US?
Interesting to read your thoughts---. At some point, "Fair", ALL human situations are "arbitrary" (unless you're studying theology). There are no 'absolutes". Your European ancestors do have a list of offenses--but I'm sure you also realize that ALL your ancestors do. Certainly the Chinese and the Indians have done 'bad' things..and the Arawaks, I believe, practiced cannibalism. But So what? This does NOT make you personally guilty of anything..you are an individual.

Setting "limits" to anything (as Skytripper discusses) and wanting to "keep people out" is one more arbitrary decision. Whether it is "good" or "bad" is dependent upon the situation. But I refuse to believe that a country has no right to set limits to "its" borders, or its immigrant flow. This can be done in a humane, caring way (laws)---or a very inhumane way (armed guards and land-mines)--but ALL countries have borders (unless they're islands). That's partially how a 'nation" is defined.

If you regulate who enters your home, are you a "nice" person, or a "bad, selfish" person? The answer, of course, is unclear. Keeping people out of your home merely establishes the fact that it's yours...whether that's "bad" or "good" is a separate issue.

The word "alien", like most English words, has both a "denotation" (literal meaning), and a "connotation" (what it makes one feel). LITERALLY, "alien" simply means one who has no legal claim to a place--one who is not legally a citizen---or something, or some cultural aspect, from "somewhere else". Literally, its meaning is pretty close to a SIMILAR word, "exotic", meaning pretty much the same thing. "Alien" is actually a LEGAL description, among other things --like "resident alien".


In its "connotation", though, "alien" has some negative 'vibes'. It HAS been used to mean 'weird', often in the context of science fiction. "Exotic", meanwhile, an equally 'neutral' word, has taken on some POSITIVE vibes-it means 'interesting', or 'desirable', or 'novel'.

BOTH the words 'alien' and 'exotic' are merely descriptive. Their 'connotations' are not necessarily literal parts of their meanings.

The ISSUE of illegal immigration is a LEGAL matter. It involves simply trespass and a violation of law. Some very "bad" people (racists) have become involved in the matter, as well as some "good" people as well (concerned with their country's welfare). The issue is not one of "good" motives or "bad" ones--it's simply an issue, which HAPPENS to have taken on some very complex "connotations", many of them coming from a 'racial' perspective. THe issue should NOT be complicated, but has become so.
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Old 01-25-2008, 09:49 AM
 
902 posts, read 505,812 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
i'm afraid i can't understand, english is not my native language. Could you please explain and/or reformulate?
I am sorry but we do speak English in this forum. Maybe use a translator or something.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:12 PM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,050 posts, read 21,163,651 times
Reputation: 22525
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Interesting to read your thoughts---. At some point, "Fair", ALL human situations are "arbitrary" (unless you're studying theology). There are no 'absolutes". Your European ancestors do have a list of offenses--but I'm sure you also realize that ALL your ancestors do. Certainly the Chinese and the Indians have done 'bad' things..and the Arawaks, I believe, practiced cannibalism. But So what? This does NOT make you personally guilty of anything..you are an individual.

Setting "limits" to anything (as Skytripper discusses) and wanting to "keep people out" is one more arbitrary decision. Whether it is "good" or "bad" is dependent upon the situation. But I refuse to believe that a country has no right to set limits to "its" borders, or its immigrant flow. This can be done in a humane, caring way (laws)---or a very inhumane way (armed guards and land-mines)--but ALL countries have borders (unless they're islands). That's partially how a 'nation" is defined.

If you regulate who enters your home, are you a "nice" person, or a "bad, selfish" person? The answer, of course, is unclear. Keeping people out of your home merely establishes the fact that it's yours...whether that's "bad" or "good" is a separate issue.

The word "alien", like most English words, has both a "denotation" (literal meaning), and a "connotation" (what it makes one feel). LITERALLY, "alien" simply means one who has no legal claim to a place--one who is not legally a citizen---or something, or some cultural aspect, from "somewhere else". Literally, its meaning is pretty close to a SIMILAR word, "exotic", meaning pretty much the same thing. "Alien" is actually a LEGAL description, among other things --like "resident alien".


In its "connotation", though, "alien" has some negative 'vibes'. It HAS been used to mean 'weird', often in the context of science fiction. "Exotic", meanwhile, an equally 'neutral' word, has taken on some POSITIVE vibes-it means 'interesting', or 'desirable', or 'novel'.

BOTH the words 'alien' and 'exotic' are merely descriptive. Their 'connotations' are not necessarily literal parts of their meanings.

The ISSUE of illegal immigration is a LEGAL matter. It involves simply trespass and a violation of law. Some very "bad" people (racists) have become involved in the matter, as well as some "good" people as well (concerned with their country's welfare). The issue is not one of "good" motives or "bad" ones--it's simply an issue, which HAPPENS to have taken on some very complex "connotations", many of them coming from a 'racial' perspective. THe issue should NOT be complicated, but has become so.
Pearls to swine, macmeal - this person claims to have laughed when reading about my comparison of French to English - There are roughly 150,000 words in the French language. Here is a link from AskOxford for information about our "little bit poor" English language:

AskOxford: Is it true that English has the most words of any language?

He is obviously limited in his knowledge of what he's shared here so far, but stubbornly continuing on with his rhetoric of whatever dogma with which he has been thus far indoctrinated. I would leave him be to stew in his own misinformed juices.

Let's see if he makes it to my ignore list today.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:15 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,158,301 times
Reputation: 138
The Spanish language has also adapted to English as well. Where do you guys think the word "Fenca" [Fen-sa] comes from? or the word "Computadora" [Computer], "Quora" [Quarter]??
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,042,585 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
The Spanish language has also adapted to English as well. Where do you guys think the word "Fenca" [Fen-sa] comes from? or the word "Computadora" [Computer], "Quora" [Quarter]??
No, many languages are based at least in some part from Latin. Many words in English, Spanish, Portuguese and many other languages use words that are very similar to Latin words. English did not originate from Spanish.
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Old 01-25-2008, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,042,585 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
No, he/she is not. You can tell by the way they refer to the US, when talking about it they refer to the US as "there" not "here". And there is no doubt in my mind this person has a deep resentment and animosity towards the US and our citizens. My guess is an American loathing European, most likely from France or Holland.

and then he says......



Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair
i currently live in France, so i know what i'm talking about. People often say "Américain/Américaine" but it's not the official word taught in school nowadays.

Damn I'm good.
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Old 01-25-2008, 01:11 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
The Spanish language has also adapted to English as well. Where do you guys think the word "Fenca" [Fen-sa] comes from? or the word "Computadora" [Computer], "Quora" [Quarter]??
How about the American English term "buckaroo"?--(think 'vaquero")

Also the "border" Spanish "marqueta" (market)---"Yonke" (junk)----"loncheria" (lunch counter).......or "parquiar mi carro"....
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Old 01-25-2008, 01:16 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
No, many languages are based at least in some part from Latin. Many words in English, Spanish, Portuguese and many other languages use words that are very similar to Latin words. English did not originate from Spanish.
It's my understanding that English, more than most languages, comes VERY close to being a true "dual" language....a VERY slight majority of our words come from the Latin--and just SLIGHTLY less come from the "Germanic". That gives MOST English speakers the instinctive ability to use "plain English" ( I LOVE you) or "fancy" English (I'm ENAMORED of you). It's not as easy to make such a switch in most other languages..(or so I'm told)..
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Des Moines, IA
1,744 posts, read 6,486,425 times
Reputation: 1206
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
It's my understanding that English, more than most languages, comes VERY close to being a true "dual" language....a VERY slight majority of our words come from the Latin--and just SLIGHTLY less come from the "Germanic". That gives MOST English speakers the instinctive ability to use "plain English" ( I LOVE you) or "fancy" English (I'm ENAMORED of you). It's not as easy to make such a switch in most other languages..(or so I'm told)..


I read a pretty good article somewhere about this. This comes from the Normans invading England and since they were the upper-crust of society, a lot of our fancier words come from the French they spoke and the more common words came from the natives who spoke Germanic langauges (with very few borrowed words from the Celtic langauges, such as "trousers"). The amount of French words we use in law, military, politics and cooking should attest to this.
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