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Old 02-27-2008, 08:35 AM
 
79 posts, read 96,989 times
Reputation: 12

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Hmmm..you jumped to each and every one of those conclusions based on my post? Wait, don't tell me, I'll bet you were a frustrated pole vaulter in high school--never quite making the team--so now you spend all of your time jumping to unsupported conclusions.

At no time did I assert that Mexico is not on the North American continent. Anthropologically speaking though, those indigenous to Mexico are Mesoamericans--you know, Meso=Middle--so called because Mexico sits between the northern part of the continent and South America--it's in the middle....nevermind.

I have never been convicted of anything. I've never even been arrested.

WW II was an ANALOGY--did you learn about those in school? You know, analogies are a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.

And finally, how you inferred the rubbish outlined in your last paragraph from my post just totally escapes me. I'm finding it difficult to glean anything except that you have somehow concluded that I heartily endorse the European subjucation of native peoples in the Americas. My mother's family is Apache. I think I probably have a more unique perspective on this issue than say, oh you for example. I don't appreciate the wholesale slaughter of my people by Europeans. However, the Mexicans participated in the wholesale slaughter of the Apache as well. Should they receive a pass on their participation? You seem pretty focused on European domination, yet you ignore the fact that hominids have been killing each other since the evolution of stone tool technology 2.5 million years ago.

As far as I am concerned, the past is the past and none of the people responsible for the erradication of the Native Americans survive today. I certainly do not endorse a victim mentality which requires me to blame any and all white people for the ills of the world.

I am an American and not simply because of my mother's people. My father's parents emigrated here legally and I was born and raised on American soil. That makes me indigenous to this country no matter how you slice it.

BTW--I think that you should take your no borders attitude down to Mexico, illegally cross their borders, and then explain to them your concept of a borderless North American continent as they are throwing your butt UNDER the jail.
I mean 'convinced'

Actually, the subject was "Am I still a real American..." so the question is:
What is supposed to be 'A real American'?
You consider you are one, because you were born there, and your mother's family's been there for milleniums. But, some people consider that 'aliens' are not because they came 'illegally'. Then, what is the difference between them, the aliens, and the Europeans invading America?
You are talking about borders, sovereign nations,... but these are Western concepts, the Native Americans weren't asked if they were sovereign nations and if there were borders.
I'm not frustrated, my opinion is not stupid: Watch in Australia, there is the same kind of history than in USA, and the government apologized.
The last point: Why are y'all so proud to live in USA???
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,174,996 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
I mean 'convinced'

You are talking about borders, sovereign nations,... but these are Western concepts...
Actually, borders and sovereign nations have been around since before the time of Christ...
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,042,912 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
The fact that many people in USA are ignorant while they think to be the most clever population in the world is not my opinion, it's a fact.
Where's your sources on this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair
See, even your people agree with me. Maybe you are personally not ignorant, that's good for you, you're lucky.
Most people in this country are well educated. If you honestly believe otherwise, perhaps the ignorance lies with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair
The last point: Why are y'all so proud to live in USA???
Because everyone who lives here KNOWS it's the greatest country on Earth. What did any of us do? We are part of the society that keeps this country running everyday, we live by and uphold this country's values, and we love our country with all our hearts and are quick to come to her defense when arrogant people like you bad mouth it. Where exactly are you from that's so perfect and so great? You've said you currently live in France, so why did you leave your country of origin if it was so wonderful? And where does all this hate and animosity towards the US come from? Did you try to get in and were denied? Are you from the middle east and are on a jihad? What the hell is your problem?
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
We have a Troll in our midst here...............do not let it get your collective goats--------we need to be Fair.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,371,245 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
You are talking about borders, sovereign nations,... but these are Western concepts,
All countries have borders. Every one last one of them.
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Old 02-27-2008, 02:25 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,690,528 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
I mean 'convinced'

Actually, the subject was "Am I still a real American..." so the question is:
What is supposed to be 'A real American'?
You consider you are one, because you were born there, and your mother's family's been there for milleniums. But, some people consider that 'aliens' are not because they came 'illegally'. Then, what is the difference between them, the aliens, and the Europeans invading America?
You are talking about borders, sovereign nations,... but these are Western concepts, the Native Americans weren't asked if they were sovereign nations and if there were borders.
I'm not frustrated, my opinion is not stupid: Watch in Australia, there is the same kind of history than in USA, and the government apologized.
The last point: Why are y'all so proud to live in USA???
During the time of the European exodus to the modern day U.S., there were no borders, there was no common government, there was no common language, there was no common anything. This was not paradise--this was a land mass occupied by tribal societies that could not abide each other, societies which made war, took slaves, raped, murdered, and drove each other from territories occupied for hundreds of years.

Every country in the world now considers its borders to be sovereign. What is it in your brain that tells you that the United States of America must be the sole exception?

You consider this to be a so-called "Western Concept" yet Egypt, a definite non-Western culture, had borders. India, China, Nubia, Byzantine, Aztec, Maya, Sumer, Persia, Inca--all definite non-Western cultures with VERY definite borders.

Since the beginning of time--and this is a concept which you seem unable to totally grasp--mankind has made war, mankind has conquered, mankind has been conquered, mankind has enslaved and been made slave, mankind has felt the need to explore, to see beyond the next horizon and, in typical hominid fashion, desired to make that which he discovered, his own.

Europeans are not the only ones guilty of enslaving or obliterating the indigenous peoples that they came upon. Aztecs, Toltecs, Berbers, Tuaregs, Mongolians, Persians, Sumerians, Native Americans--they all come to mind (without further research) as non Europeans who conquered, enslaved, murdered, and obliterated native peoples in their conquests for land and resources.

Australia began as a penal colony--a slightly different beginning than the U.S. although it is likely that their effect upon the natives of that continent was similar. So they apologized to the native Bushmen. Just exactly how many times does the U.S. government take responsibility for something which began well over 200 years ago which no one living today had any stake in? I think it's been done and overdone. Nothing the government does now will make up for what happened in this country from the early 1600's on. But as I have stated in a prior post, that is the past. I prefer to see the Nde move on without the victim mentality and make our ancestors proud of us the way we live today and not as a people who cannot move beyond what happened to them 100 or more years ago.

You ask why there are those of us who are proud to be Americans. Despite somewhat dubious beginnings, America still remains the land of opportunity. I asked a friend of mine, a recent immigrant from India to tell me why she thinks America is great. I am paraphrasing, but this is basically what she said:

"More than any country in the world, America is the land of opportunity. The ordinary person has a better shot at success in the United States than anywhere else. As an immigrant to the United States, my view is that America is the country where a person is the architect of their own destiny. This is the place where we get to write the script of our own lives. There are not many people in America who have to wonder where their next meal is coming from. Even sick people who don’t have money or insurance will receive medical care at hospital emergency rooms. Every American child is offered a public education, and most have the chance to go on to college. Ordinary Americans enjoy benefits that other societies reserve for the elite. Only in America could Pierre Omidyar, whose parents are from Iran and who was educated in France, have started the highly successful Internet auction site eBay. Only in America could Ronald Reagan, who grew up poor in the Midwest, go on to become a Hollywood star, governor of California, and then President of the United States. Only in America is there a document such as your Constitution, which guarantees life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to all her inhabitants."

Yeah, I think that pretty well says it all.

Last edited by Kele; 02-27-2008 at 02:45 PM..
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Old 02-27-2008, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
185 posts, read 319,555 times
Reputation: 149
[quote=Kele;2965570]During the time of the European exodus to the modern day U.S., there were no borders, there was no common government, there was no common language, there was no common anything. This was not paradise--this was a land mass occupied by tribal societies that could not abide each other, societies which made war, took slaves, raped, murdered, and drove each other from territories occupied for hundreds of years.

Every country in the world now considers its borders to be sovereign. What is it in your brain that tells you that the United States of America must be the sole exception?

You consider this to be a so-called "Western Concept" yet Egypt, a definite non-Western culture, had borders. India, China, Nubia, Byzantine, Aztec, Maya, Sumer, Persia, Inca--all definite non-Western cultures with VERY definite borders.

Since the beginning of time--and this is a concept which you seem unable to totally grasp--mankind has made war, mankind has conquered, mankind has been conquered, mankind has enslaved and been made slave, mankind has felt the need to explore, to see beyond the next horizon and, in typical hominid fashion, desired to make that which he discovered, his own.

The American people are fed up with high unemployment combined with high immigration, both legal and illegal. That is why the SAVE Act has received such broad support both in Congress and among the American people.

Allowing Speaker Pelosi to water it down by adding work visas defeats one of the main goals of the SAVE Act. What is the use of preventing illegal aliens from working when you are going to hand their jobs to new foreign workers? Don't Americans immigrants who are already here deserve a fair shake at finding employment?

The SAVE Act is a great bill. It prevents employers from unknowingly hiring illegal aliens and severely punishes those employers who do so intentionally. This will open up jobs for Americans who need them. Whatever you do, do not support Leader Pelosi's attempts to keep Americans out of work.QUOTE]

You're the best Kele! One of the most intelligent and articulate people I've seen on ANY forum.
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Old 03-13-2008, 05:14 AM
 
79 posts, read 96,989 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
During the time of the European exodus to the modern day U.S., there were no borders, there was no common government, there was no common language, there was no common anything. This was not paradise--this was a land mass occupied by tribal societies that could not abide each other, societies which made war, took slaves, raped, murdered, and drove each other from territories occupied for hundreds of years.

Every country in the world now considers its borders to be sovereign. What is it in your brain that tells you that the United States of America must be the sole exception?

You consider this to be a so-called "Western Concept" yet Egypt, a definite non-Western culture, had borders. India, China, Nubia, Byzantine, Aztec, Maya, Sumer, Persia, Inca--all definite non-Western cultures with VERY definite borders.

Since the beginning of time--and this is a concept which you seem unable to totally grasp--mankind has made war, mankind has conquered, mankind has been conquered, mankind has enslaved and been made slave, mankind has felt the need to explore, to see beyond the next horizon and, in typical hominid fashion, desired to make that which he discovered, his own.

Europeans are not the only ones guilty of enslaving or obliterating the indigenous peoples that they came upon. Aztecs, Toltecs, Berbers, Tuaregs, Mongolians, Persians, Sumerians, Native Americans--they all come to mind (without further research) as non Europeans who conquered, enslaved, murdered, and obliterated native peoples in their conquests for land and resources.

Australia began as a penal colony--a slightly different beginning than the U.S. although it is likely that their effect upon the natives of that continent was similar. So they apologized to the native Bushmen. Just exactly how many times does the U.S. government take responsibility for something which began well over 200 years ago which no one living today had any stake in? I think it's been done and overdone. Nothing the government does now will make up for what happened in this country from the early 1600's on. But as I have stated in a prior post, that is the past. I prefer to see the Nde move on without the victim mentality and make our ancestors proud of us the way we live today and not as a people who cannot move beyond what happened to them 100 or more years ago.

You ask why there are those of us who are proud to be Americans. Despite somewhat dubious beginnings, America still remains the land of opportunity. I asked a friend of mine, a recent immigrant from India to tell me why she thinks America is great. I am paraphrasing, but this is basically what she said:

"More than any country in the world, America is the land of opportunity. The ordinary person has a better shot at success in the United States than anywhere else. As an immigrant to the United States, my view is that America is the country where a person is the architect of their own destiny. This is the place where we get to write the script of our own lives. There are not many people in America who have to wonder where their next meal is coming from. Even sick people who donít have money or insurance will receive medical care at hospital emergency rooms. Every American child is offered a public education, and most have the chance to go on to college. Ordinary Americans enjoy benefits that other societies reserve for the elite. Only in America could Pierre Omidyar, whose parents are from Iran and who was educated in France, have started the highly successful Internet auction site eBay. Only in America could Ronald Reagan, who grew up poor in the Midwest, go on to become a Hollywood star, governor of California, and then President of the United States. Only in America is there a document such as your Constitution, which guarantees life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to all her inhabitants."

Yeah, I think that pretty well says it all.
How can you tell 'During the time of the European exodus to the modern day U.S., there were no borders' were you there?
And does the fact that 'there was no common language, there was no common anything.' gave the Europeans the right to kill them? When there is no common language somewhere, that place must be invaded? What is in YOUR brains?
And does the fact that ' Europeans are not the only ones guilty of enslaving or obliterating the indigenous peoples that they came upon.' make you proud?

Moreover, did the US government apoligize for slavery? For the looting of America, Africa,...

You are talking about your Indian friend. She sees USA as a paradise, because India is a poor country. She doesn't even know the difference between USA and America...

For sayin gthat 'There are not many people in America who have to wonder where their next meal is coming from.' she's been watching too much TV.

For saying that 'Even sick people who donít have money or insurance will receive medical care at hospital emergency rooms. Every American child is offered a public education, and most have the chance to go on to college' that merely shows that in India it's does not happen. Because poor people receive medical care all over Europe, Cuba, Canada... from what i know.
And she doesn't seem to know that your Constitution was made before the end of slavery... so i have doubts whether she guarantees 'liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to all her inhabitants'

She seems to believe USA is a democracy.
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Old 03-13-2008, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
How can you tell 'During the time of the European exodus to the modern day U.S., there were no borders' were you there?
And does the fact that 'there was no common language, there was no common anything.' gave the Europeans the right to kill them? When there is no common language somewhere, that place must be invaded? What is in YOUR brains?
And does the fact that ' Europeans are not the only ones guilty of enslaving or obliterating the indigenous peoples that they came upon.' make you proud?

Moreover, did the US government apoligize for slavery? For the looting of America, Africa,...

You are talking about your Indian friend. She sees USA as a paradise, because India is a poor country. She doesn't even know the difference between USA and America...

For sayin gthat 'There are not many people in America who have to wonder where their next meal is coming from.' she's been watching too much TV.

For saying that 'Even sick people who donít have money or insurance will receive medical care at hospital emergency rooms. Every American child is offered a public education, and most have the chance to go on to college' that merely shows that in India it's does not happen. Because poor people receive medical care all over Europe, Cuba, Canada... from what i know.
And she doesn't seem to know that your Constitution was made before the end of slavery... so i have doubts whether she guarantees 'liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to all her inhabitants'

She seems to believe USA is a democracy.
GET OVER IT!

Where do you get the idea that the USA was the only one guilty of atrocities in the long ago past?

Trust me: atrocities were equal opportunity crimes for all races/ethnicities throughout history.

Japan was a 'sterling' example of a country that committed war crimes en masse during WW II------and, the Japanese people are not usually considered 'White'......and, certainly are not Americans (citizens of Japan that is).

Till the Third World countries clean up their own back yards, Zimbabwe comes to mind--------they are in no position to pass judgement what we do or do not do.
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Old 03-14-2008, 03:08 AM
 
79 posts, read 96,989 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
GET OVER IT!

Where do you get the idea that the USA was the only one guilty of atrocities in the long ago past?

Trust me: atrocities were equal opportunity crimes for all races/ethnicities throughout history.

Japan was a 'sterling' example of a country that committed war crimes en masse during WW II------and, the Japanese people are not usually considered 'White'......and, certainly are not Americans (citizens of Japan that is).

Till the Third World countries clean up their own back yards, Zimbabwe comes to mind--------they are in no position to pass judgement what we do or do not do.
I've never said that 'USA was the only one guilty of atrocities in the long ago past' i know many countries have such long ago or even recent pasts. But their inhabitants are not proud like you are. Not many people are proud of the atrocities their ancestors have done. Not many people say 'I'm proud to be from my country, no matter its History, I was born there and I'm proud' because there is no pride in the fact to be born somewhere...

Anyway, how can you justify that with such a worldwidely known past, you so many of you have the boldness to think no strangers can now come and live in USA without speaking English, calling them aliens.
USA are not innocent about the situation of poorness in south America. But you honest citizens don't want to know why they are poor and desperate, you just don't want them to 'invade your territory'. Just like racist people in Europe! They think strangers will come and steal their jobs and their health system.

USA are not worse than another country, you don't even have a colonialist past, merely a slavery past. At least, if you really don't want any poor stranger to come, give him reasons to stay in his country, for example you citizens could exert pressure on the government to use the money of war to do the good in countries close to yours instead of wasting it in countries far from yours.
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