U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-22-2008, 08:51 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,630,805 times
Reputation: 2983

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by frosty704 View Post
Then when they finish, maybe they go back to Mexico and americans left holding a mexican flag
The United States of America is a nation dedicated to PEACE and FREEDOM. And I'll punch ANYONE in the nose who disagrees---
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-22-2008, 09:10 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,698,040 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
1650 : Slavery is legal
1776 : USA are independent from UK
1865 : Slavery is abolished (13th amendment)
1995 : the 13th amendment is ratified

What kind of freedom do you refer ?
i repeat America is a continent, not a country.
And do you think the Europeans got into America legally in the 15th century ?

lilypad :i'm not revisionnist, but only you think you work for the greatest good. You are generally auto satisfied. Excuse me, i did'nt understand what will be the ruination of "your" country.

cousinsal : European ideals contain freedom since a few years ago, far after the birth of USA. Slavery or colonialism are not that far...

arizonabear : all the people you quote did't come in order to conquer all the continent, spread diseases, ...
Ah geez, not another one....

Why is it that the United States of America seems to be the only country singled out for its origins while the beginnings of many other countries around the world were much more violent?

When was the last time you met an Ostrogoth or a Visogoth? By the mid sixth century, they were conquered first by the Huns and then by Rome, with devastating results for modern day Italy. Yet Italy managed to survive its barbaric origins and has prospered.

Celtish and Germanic peoples managed to survive Roman invasion and were, while not better off for it at the time, did end up with roads, viaducts, architecture, etc.

Man's inhumanity to man has been well documented throughout history and the origins of this country show yet another facet of that age old dilemma. Is it because the origins of this country are so recent, that people feel the need to continue to harp upon its beginnings?

The United States of America is a country. North America is a continent. South America is a continent. It is not all wrapped up into one big land mass. Do you deny the sovereignty of the South American countries as well?

The beginnings of this country weren't pretty. But they were what they were and whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, this country is sovereign and this country's people, i.e.; her citizens, have the right to determine her future.

We have determined that we are fed up with those who declare that this is their country simply because of Mexico's ownership of small territories for less than 25 years of our history, or because of some imagined kinship with North American Native Americans. Trust me, as someone of Native American ancestry with relatives living on reservations, that kinship is definitely one-sided.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2008, 10:02 AM
 
79 posts, read 97,087 times
Reputation: 12
Default Know your History

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
What law existed in the 15th century vis-a-vis immigration and war?

the europeans who invaded America then didn't ask themselves if the Americans had laws vis-s-vis immigration and war. do you think they came and ask "excuse me, can i come and invade your continent?" or just fire with their firearms. And the massacre didn't end, it has been continuing during years and years.


Explain this a bit.

i mean, i don't defend Europeans. Most Europeans countries are now democraties, but they too have blood in their History books. They invaded Australia, India, America, Africa, and they did the same thing : declare themselves as superiors to the people who were already there, and exploit them or kill them. That's the way Europeans did. Don't you know this ?

Did anyone come in order to specifically "spread disease"? Conquer? Yes. But I think you could admit that spreading disease was not a motivator for most, if any.
Maybe the europeans didn't see that on their boats many people were ill... maybe they believed they were going on desert lands... but when they arrived, why didn't they go back to europe saying there were already people living there. They wanted to appropriate the land !


nvxplorer : i did not say the contrary. i only said that USA citizens call the USA "America" and often oppose America to Mexico or Canada for example. They think USA citizens are the only Americans. And for your information "North and South America are sometimes recognized as one American continent" ==> Continent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia i did not invent it
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2008, 10:07 AM
 
79 posts, read 97,087 times
Reputation: 12
Default i don't disagree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Ah geez, not another one....

Why is it that the United States of America seems to be the only country singled out for its origins while the beginnings of many other countries around the world were much more violent?

When was the last time you met an Ostrogoth or a Visogoth? By the mid sixth century, they were conquered first by the Huns and then by Rome, with devastating results for modern day Italy. Yet Italy managed to survive its barbaric origins and has prospered.

Celtish and Germanic peoples managed to survive Roman invasion and were, while not better off for it at the time, did end up with roads, viaducts, architecture, etc.

Man's inhumanity to man has been well documented throughout history and the origins of this country show yet another facet of that age old dilemma. Is it because the origins of this country are so recent, that people feel the need to continue to harp upon its beginnings?

The United States of America is a country. North America is a continent. South America is a continent. It is not all wrapped up into one big land mass. Do you deny the sovereignty of the South American countries as well?

The beginnings of this country weren't pretty. But they were what they were and whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, this country is sovereign and this country's people, i.e.; her citizens, have the right to determine her future.

We have determined that we are fed up with those who declare that this is their country simply because of Mexico's ownership of small territories for less than 25 years of our history, or because of some imagined kinship with North American Native Americans. Trust me, as someone of Native American ancestry with relatives living on reservations, that kinship is definitely one-sided.
Man i don't think USA has a better or worse History than European countries ; European countries invaded all the continents (except Asia) that's the way europeans did, they killed or exploited people when they came somewhere.

Now i don't see why USA is more yours than the Mexicans one. i mean, all American people have Europeans, Africans, Indians ancestors, and what i think is they divided the land of America without asking the original people they point. So...

i don't know if i was clear.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2008, 11:01 AM
 
17,286 posts, read 25,002,878 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
Maybe the europeans didn't see that on their boats many people were ill... maybe they believed they were going on desert lands... but when they arrived, why didn't they go back to europe saying there were already people living there. They wanted to appropriate the land !
And you think the average European in 1493 knew that Indians lacked immunities to Old World Diseases?

They wanted to appropriate land. Yes. So what? Isn't that what people did up until maybe the second half of the 20th century, when humanity realized that MAYBE territory acquisition by force isn't humane? We can apply 20th and 21st century moral standards on people in the past all day if you'd like. To what end? What purpose will be served?

I think maybe it is YOU who needs to study WORLD history and find me a major "group" as broad as "European" who never tried to "acquire land" that belonged to others!


Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair
nvxplorer : i did not say the contrary. i only said that USA citizens call the USA "America" and often oppose America to Mexico or Canada for example. They think USA citizens are the only Americans. And for your information "North and South America are sometimes recognized as one American continent" ==> Continent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia i did not invent it
I don't understand Non-United States' citizens' obsessions with Americans "owning" the identifier of "American." The world knows exactly what you're talking about when you say, "I'm an American." They're gonna think New York and Hollywood. Not Brasilia, Toronto, or Bogota.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2008, 12:59 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,072,468 times
Reputation: 2049
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
nvxplorer : i did not say the contrary. i only said that USA citizens call the USA "America" and often oppose America to Mexico or Canada for example. They think USA citizens are the only Americans.
As you state yourself, we citizens call ourselves Americans because, to us, "American" is defined as being a citizen of the US. Therefore, to us, we are the only Americans. Indeed, the rest of the hemisphere seems to agree. Ask someone from San Salvador what nationality she is, and I'm certain you won't hear "Americana." Ask her the nationality of someone from Chicago, however, and you certainly will.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2008, 03:35 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,630,805 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Fair View Post
Man i don't think USA has a better or worse History than European countries ; European countries invaded all the continents (except Asia) that's the way europeans did, they killed or exploited people when they came somewhere.

i don't know if i was clear.
Actually, you're overly kind. In addition to "the OTHER continents", Europeans invaded Asia as WELL--India, China, the Phillippines, Viet Nam, Burma, Ceylon, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia......sounds like Asia to me. ALL were treated to decades-long "visits" from the West....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2008, 03:44 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,630,805 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
I don't understand Non-United States' citizens' obsessions with Americans "owning" the identifier of "American." The world knows exactly what you're talking about when you say, "I'm an American." They're gonna think New York and Hollywood. Not Brasilia, Toronto, or Bogota.
Oftentimes, once-valid arguments run out of "steam" and get increasingly one-sided. Having solved most of their REAL disagreements, they fall into petty 'nit-picking', such as this CLEARLY is. It's like the argument over whether to call "the handicapped", the "differently-abled". By the time you get to THAT point in the argument, you know you've missed most of the "good stuff".

Most REASONABLE people in ALL countries understand the term "American". Is this absolutely, 100%, across-the-board 'accurate'? Probably not... Along with LOTS of modern-day, universally-accepted terms. We do it to 'save syllables'....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2008, 02:41 AM
 
79 posts, read 97,087 times
Reputation: 12
Default So what ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Actually, you're overly kind. In addition to "the OTHER continents", Europeans invaded Asia as WELL--India, China, the Phillippines, Viet Nam, Burma, Ceylon, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia......sounds like Asia to me. ALL were treated to decades-long "visits" from the West....
So...what? Is it an excuse, a pretext ?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2008, 02:48 AM
 
79 posts, read 97,087 times
Reputation: 12
Default America is still a continent... or two continents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
As you state yourself, we citizens call ourselves Americans because, to us, "American" is defined as being a citizen of the US. Therefore, to us, we are the only Americans. Indeed, the rest of the hemisphere seems to agree. Ask someone from San Salvador what nationality she is, and I'm certain you won't hear "Americana." Ask her the nationality of someone from Chicago, however, and you certainly will.
Yes, but that proves you're big headed, you think the continent is yours, and as USA has so many times horrified the other countries in the past (e.g. by placing their pawns at the head of foreign governments all over the world) and especially South America countries, they don't want to be associated/confused with USA. Hugo Chavez hates USA! He is not going to say he is American even if it's true.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top