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Old 01-25-2009, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
Are we resorting to personal attacks now?
Then go ahead and Report me: trust me, I Report you from time to time for acting like a Troll.
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:41 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
I see a lot of reasons to end socialist programs like welfare, medicaid, public schools, and so on, but I see not good arguments against immigration itself. Stupid regulations like the minimum wage and the "war on drugs" are also hurting the economy quite a bit, but the immigrants who have jobs do not.

As for "suppressed American wages" - any serious economist would laugh you out of the room. Why would you assume that people want to pay more (we're talking about a lot more) for things if they're built by Americans? When given a choice they don't! The only people who should be upset about low-wage manufacturing / agriculture in America are the people who export labor-intensive products themselves, most notably the Red Chinese!

Even more importantly, there is a serious moral flaw in your sense of entitlement. You feel that people should pay you more (or expect you to work less for same wage) just because you're born into the "master race", i.e. American citizenship. That's despicable! The job should go to the person who can do it best, which includes value as well as quality, regardless of where he or she happened to be born!

You see no valid reason to limit immigration........

Well, why not invite the entire world to emigrate here? We can each have our own little 12" x 12" square to stand on--and maybe some brilliant nutritionist can figure out a way to produce a nutritional supplement from human urine and feces to keep us all alive.

Reminds me of a Star Trek episode of a world so overcrowded, it's inhabitants were taught from birth that rather than limiting the number of new additions to their planet, (i.e.; birth control) it was their duty to participate in a lottery in which a significant part of the population was "euthanized" in order to make way for the new.

Geezus, those of you who look at the world through your "no human being is illegal" rose colored glasses without ever bothering to see the overall, far reaching effects of too many people in any given space, absolutely confound my brain.
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:49 AM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,895,366 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
You see no valid reason to limit immigration........

Well, why not invite the entire world to emigrate here? We can each have our own little 12" x 12" square to stand on--and maybe some brilliant nutritionist can figure out a way to produce a nutritional supplement from human urine and feces to keep us all alive.

Reminds me of a Star Trek episode of a world so overcrowded, it's inhabitants were taught from birth that rather than limiting the number of new additions to their planet, (i.e.; birth control) it was their duty to participate in a lottery in which a significant part of the population was "euthanized" in order to make way for the new.

Geezus, those of you who look at the world through your "no human being is illegal" rose colored glasses without ever bothering to see the overall, far reaching effects of too many people in any given space, absolutely confound my brain.
It appears that those who are accustomed to existing in poverty, squalor and over crowded conditions would love to see those of us who aren't reduced to their poverty stricken levels of existence. Breath taking isn't it?
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
I see a lot of reasons to end socialist programs like welfare, medicaid, public schools, and so on, but I see not good arguments against immigration itself. Stupid regulations like the minimum wage and the "war on drugs" are also hurting the economy quite a bit, but the immigrants who have jobs do not.
As for "suppressed American wages" - any serious economist would laugh you out of the room. Why would you assume that people want to pay more (we're talking about a lot more) for things if they're built by Americans? When given a choice they don't! The only people who should be upset about low-wage manufacturing / agriculture in America are the people who export labor-intensive products themselves, most notably the Red Chinese!

Even more importantly, there is a serious moral flaw in your sense of entitlement. You feel that people should pay you more (or expect you to work less for same wage) just because you're born into the "master race", i.e. American citizenship. That's despicable! The job should go to the person who can do it best, which includes value as well as quality, regardless of where he or she happened to be born!
Herein lies the problem. The jobs are not going to those “who can do it best,” they are going to those who will “do it for less.” Following your ‘logic’ we should simply return to slavery. Why pay wages if we can have slaves and pay them nothing? Think of the competitive edge, and the massive profits corporations would enjoy.

By the way, I’m sure you won’t complain if you are eventually replaced by one of those you herald as being superior in performance, and a cost saving for your employer. Thousands are losing jobs on a daily basis. If you are currently employed, perhaps your job will be next. Of course, given your high moral standards, you would gladly relinquish your livelihood for one more deserving.
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Herein lies the problem. The jobs are not going to those “who can do it best,” they are going to those who will “do it for less.” Following your ‘logic’ we should simply return to slavery. Why pay wages if we can have slaves and pay them nothing? Think of the competitive edge, and the massive profits corporations would enjoy.

By the way, I’m sure you won’t complain if you are eventually replaced by one of those you herald as being superior in performance, and a cost saving for your employer. Thousands are losing jobs on a daily basis. If you are currently employed, perhaps your job will be next. Of course, given your high moral standards, you would gladly relinquish your livelihood for one more deserving.
Zing!

And so very eloquently put.
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Zing!

And so very eloquently put.
Why thank you, sir.
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:48 AM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,790,161 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Then go ahead and Report me: trust me, I Report you from time to time for acting like a Troll.
Sorry, unlike you,i don't gain any pleasure(nor is my life enriched) from reporting people on an internet message board.
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:51 AM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,790,161 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Believing that it is in the best interests of one's country to limit immigration (especially that of uneducated, poor immigrants, legal or illegal) does not make one anti-immigrant.

That's a stretch, even for you.

Are you so blinded by your inability to understand the ramifications of unlimted immigration, legal or illegal, that you cannot grasp that the United States of America is a country of limited resources? That to continue to accept, without limitation, any and all who wish to come here is tantamount to national suicide?

Capitol Weekly: DWR warns of drought, water rationing in 2009

Water Quality Association

Few places in America illustrate overpopulation better than Los Angeles, California. To expose that state’s horrific future, it grows by 1,600 people daily. Another 400 cars add to their already gridlocked highways EVERY DAY! You can live and you can die in traffic. At 44,000 deaths annually on our nation’s highways, it’s a toss-up whether or not you make it home in LA each week. Legal and illegal immigration drives most of California’s growth.

Fogel/Martin “U.S. Population Projections” predict California’s growth to rise from 37.5 million to a low trend of 65.6 million and as high as 79.1 million in 40 years. Like cattle down the slaughter chute, Chicago, New York, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Boston and Denver follow California into the demographic “Human Katrina” maelstrom.

American Farmland Trust: Resources - Farming on the Edge Report

As Lester Brown reports, “Erosion steals 24 billion tons of soil from the world’s farmers annually; a figure that the ecology-minded cite as plain evidence that humanity is exceeding the carrying capacity of the planet.”

In Tragedy of the Commons, ecologist Garrett Hardin proposes that if you introduce two horses into a two acre fenced paddock (finite area, like a finite earth), and a water tank—both horses can eat their fill, poop and pee with unlimited personal safety. However, if you run 100 horses into that two acre paddock, they overwhelm the water tank, eat all the grass as well as trample it, create terrible waste problems and crowd themselves into angry confrontations with nowhere to escape. Voila! Tragedy of the Commons!

On the problem of U.S. overpopulation, Dr. Albert Bartlett, Professor Emeritus of Physics University of Colorado had this to say, “Can you think of any problem in any area of human endeavor on any scale, from microscopic to global, whose long-term solution is in any demonstrable way aided, assisted, or advanced by further increases of population, locally, nationally, or globally?”

With the U.S. population today exceeding 300 million people--with another 100 million expected to be added through immigration, legal and illegal, within the next 20 to 30 years--how can you be so blind to the problems of adding even more people to a severely strained ecosystem and infrastructure? Have you no care for the generations to come--those we will hobble by our inability to control our burgeoning population and its devastating effects on those systems within our own country on which we rely for water, food, power, etc.?

Your short-sighted love of illegal immigration and faux concern for legal immigrants is touching. Imprudent and mind-bogglingly myopic--but touching. Try generating a little bit of concern for those for whom this country is already home and for the ecological future of said country.

Our resources are not boundless and limitless, but finite and insufficient to support an ever burgeoning population--a population which will ultimately break the back of American ability and means to effectively support our own population.

And by the way, I find it almost farcical that you would find one article by one person within an organization of about 50 people, who advocates limiting all immigration and velcro yourself to it without even reading thoroughly, his economic and ecological rationale behind limitations. You really take the cake, bk.
The people from CIS are against H1B visas, guest worker visas, family reunification visas and basically every legal way immigrants can come into this country. Tell me how their position is NOT anti-immigrant.
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Old 01-25-2009, 12:31 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,034,103 times
Reputation: 17687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
You see no valid reason to limit immigration........

Well, why not invite the entire world to emigrate here? We can each have our own little 12" x 12" square to stand on--and maybe some brilliant nutritionist can figure out a way to produce a nutritional supplement from human urine and feces to keep us all alive.

Reminds me of a Star Trek episode of a world so overcrowded, it's inhabitants were taught from birth that rather than limiting the number of new additions to their planet, (i.e.; birth control) it was their duty to participate in a lottery in which a significant part of the population was "euthanized" in order to make way for the new.

Geezus, those of you who look at the world through your "no human being is illegal" rose colored glasses without ever bothering to see the overall, far reaching effects of too many people in any given space, absolutely confound my brain.
This is indeed reality with Countries killing each other by the millions with war including ethnic cleansing and genocide. Another aspect of overcrowding is famine and disease.
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Old 01-25-2009, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
This is indeed reality with Countries killing each other by the millions with war including ethnic cleansing and genocide. Another aspect of overcrowding is famine and disease.
Flip side is whenever a group of countries (Europe comes to mind) is at or below ZPG (2.1 children per woman)-----------the desire for warfare, etc. drops dramatically. There is no spare 'cannon fodder'.
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