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Old 08-22-2009, 09:35 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,621,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
What would your version of assimilation look like? Would it be "better" if Miami more closely resembled Omaha? Do you expect first-generation immigrants to drop their culture and language as soon as they set foot in the U.S? Would you want a Jose Rodriguez to become a Joseph Rogers, and force him to stop eating his culture's food, have him magically lose his accent, and forget his mother tongue?

Miami is a major reception point for immigrants from Cuba and other parts of Latin America. I don't claim to know exactly how it is in Miami, but in Southern CA for example, amongst Mexicans/Mexican-Americans, assimilation does occur, and is usually complete by the third generation, and you can easily see all three levels of assimilation in the local population.

IMO, those that would rather live in a place that resembles "Mainstream America" should probably live in one. That way, they can focus their attention on other, more important things, instead of nit-picking at other people's culture and/or way of life.
All fair enough points, and nothing you've said isn't true. But, for the sake of argument, allow me to play 'devil's advocate' just briefly..

GIVEN that "Miami doesn't resemble Omaha"..(and assuming for the sake of argument that you'd WANT a place to resemble Omaha)....at what point is the "local" population of a country...ANY country..allowed to express alarm, at what they see as a 'changing culture'? It's a fair question.

Let's suppose, for example, that a certain part of France began to resemble India...or Turkey...or the Ukraine. Would there be a point at which the French population might be expected to register alarm...or concern..or misgivings? Or not?

It's all well and good to continue the old mantra that "the USA is a land of immigrants....so therefore it HAS no certain, agreed-upon culture; it HAS no right to insist that anyone assimilate to its culture, and no legitimate complaint if they DON'T...all assimilation to the US, at whatever level, is purely voluntary on the part of all immigrant groups..and EARLIER groups have no 'leg to stand on' in asking that immigrants 'get with the program'...since the USA has no required language, no formal 'cultural norms', and no certain dominant culture"....AND there's no 'seniority' in the USA, and under the law, the newest legal immigrant is every bit as "American" as one whose ancestors arrived 300 years ago. Legally, there's no such thing as a 'newcomer'. Is that reasonable? Frankly, I don't know.

You could ASK that Americans accept that (the above)...and no doubt, many of them will do so...but is it really realistic to think that everyone in America will be 'OK' with this? Would we expect such a formula to work in Japan, or Mexico, or Turkey, or Croatia? That these countries have 'no real, agreed-upon culture', and their citizens therefore have 'no right to insist their culture be respected by new arrivals'? If a large segment of Argentina began resembling a place "not like mainstream Argentina", could we then expect some Argentines to register displeasure? Would they be justified in this? If so, is that because Argentina has a 'certain culture', unlike the US?

Do we simply expect the USA to be more 'accomodating' to immigrants than other countries because it's a 'newer'' country?..or just because the USA "SAYS it would welcome immigrants", while some other countries have not? Are we expecting MORE from the average American, in the accomodating of foreign immigrants, than we expect out of others?...and if so, WHY? Because we're "better" people?..or more "generous"...or are we just more naive, and less attached to our culture than other, 'prouder' societies are? If this is how we feel, is it fair?

In conclusion, I'll remind everyone that this is an 'illegal immigration' forum. And when "multiple cultures" become construed to mean "multiple degrees of acceptance of the phenomena of illegal immigration", the stage is set for misunderstandings. And that's what we have here on the forum....a discussion of illegal immigration, a purely LEGAL matter, that SOME people insist on splitting along cultural lines. And that's a big part of the problem, IMO. If being "for", or "against" illegal immigration depends on one's culture...then NO WONDER we disagree.

Understand, these are simply hypothetical questions...for the comment of anyone who's interested.

 
Old 08-23-2009, 01:57 AM
 
141 posts, read 254,293 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by svg210 View Post
They find it easier to pick on the humble. yet these discussions are very lop-sided towards one group of Illegals. I never heard them bashing on Hungarian illegals, Asian Illegals but only on the latin/hispanic illegals.
the 6 hungarians that are here illegally arent ****ting all over the country
 
Old 08-23-2009, 01:58 AM
 
141 posts, read 254,293 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
All fair enough points, and nothing you've said isn't true. But, for the sake of argument, allow me to play 'devil's advocate' just briefly..

GIVEN that "Miami doesn't resemble Omaha"..(and assuming for the sake of argument that you'd WANT a place to resemble Omaha)....at what point is the "local" population of a country...ANY country..allowed to express alarm, at what they see as a 'changing culture'? It's a fair question.

Let's suppose, for example, that a certain part of France began to resemble India...or Turkey...or the Ukraine. Would there be a point at which the French population might be expected to register alarm...or concern..or misgivings? Or not?

It's all well and good to continue the old mantra that "the USA is a land of immigrants....so therefore it HAS no certain, agreed-upon culture; it HAS no right to insist that anyone assimilate to its culture, and no legitimate complaint if they DON'T...all assimilation to the US, at whatever level, is purely voluntary on the part of all immigrant groups..and EARLIER groups have no 'leg to stand on' in asking that immigrants 'get with the program'...since the USA has no required language, no formal 'cultural norms', and no certain dominant culture"....AND there's no 'seniority' in the USA, and under the law, the newest legal immigrant is every bit as "American" as one whose ancestors arrived 300 years ago. Legally, there's no such thing as a 'newcomer'. Is that reasonable? Frankly, I don't know.

You could ASK that Americans accept that (the above)...and no doubt, many of them will do so...but is it really realistic to think that everyone in America will be 'OK' with this? Would we expect such a formula to work in Japan, or Mexico, or Turkey, or Croatia? That these countries have 'no real, agreed-upon culture', and their citizens therefore have 'no right to insist their culture be respected by new arrivals'? If a large segment of Argentina began resembling a place "not like mainstream Argentina", could we then expect some Argentines to register displeasure? Would they be justified in this? If so, is that because Argentina has a 'certain culture', unlike the US?

Do we simply expect the USA to be more 'accomodating' to immigrants than other countries because it's a 'newer'' country?..or just because the USA "SAYS it would welcome immigrants", while some other countries have not? Are we expecting MORE from the average American, in the accomodating of foreign immigrants, than we expect out of others?...and if so, WHY? Because we're "better" people?..or more "generous"...or are we just more naive, and less attached to our culture than other, 'prouder' societies are? If this is how we feel, is it fair?

In conclusion, I'll remind everyone that this is an 'illegal immigration' forum. And when "multiple cultures" become construed to mean "multiple degrees of acceptance of the phenomena of illegal immigration", the stage is set for misunderstandings. And that's what we have here on the forum....a discussion of illegal immigration, a purely LEGAL matter, that SOME people insist on splitting along cultural lines. And that's a big part of the problem, IMO. If being "for", or "against" illegal immigration depends on one's culture...then NO WONDER we disagree.

Understand, these are simply hypothetical questions...for the comment of anyone who's interested.
americans are the only country that isnt allowed to preserve its culture (mostly because of liberal guilt)
 
Old 08-23-2009, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,640,026 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syngar99 View Post
americans are the only country that isnt allowed to preserve its culture (mostly because of liberal guilt)
My 'White guilt' has died: in fact; the illegal alien invasion has impelled me to become much more patriotic towards Old Glory
 
Old 08-23-2009, 06:58 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,156,932 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
What would your version of assimilation look like? Would it be "better" if Miami more closely resembled Omaha? Do you expect first-generation immigrants to drop their culture and language as soon as they set foot in the U.S? Would you want a Jose Rodriguez to become a Joseph Rogers, and force him to stop eating his culture's food, have him magically lose his accent, and forget his mother tongue?

Miami is a major reception point for immigrants from Cuba and other parts of Latin America. I don't claim to know exactly how it is in Miami, but in Southern CA for example, amongst Mexicans/Mexican-Americans, assimilation does occur, and is usually complete by the third generation, and you can easily see all three levels of assimilation in the local population.

IMO, those that would rather live in a place that resembles "Mainstream America" should probably live in one. That way, they can focus their attention on other, more important things, instead of nit-picking at other people's culture and/or way of life.
Assimilating means learning and speaking our language out in public when at all possible. I don't care what language someone switches to at home. And don't start with the freedom of speech BS because this is about respect and assimilation, not restricting freedom of speech per se. There is a time and place for everything.

Assimilating would be to keep one's cultural practices inside the home also. Chickens or goats running around someone's backyard in a non-rural neighborhood is unacceptable. Beat up old cars all over one's property and painting ones's house pink and lavender is another example. Women covered with clothing from head to toe including one's face is another example (and I am not talking about those Americans who live in the snowbelt and are covered for warmth either). Loud foreign music blaring away in the middle of the night. These are only a few examples of non-assimilation into our society.

Now as for ethic cultural busiiness districts that is something different. It allows us the experience of enjoying different ethnic foods and other aspects of a foreign culture but as for this in your face cultural diversity out in mainstream America on a daily basis it is disrespectful and a non-assimilation factor. No one is asking someone to forget their cultural roots or even to lose their accent but to have the common sense and respect to speak our language and blend into our society out in public.
 
Old 08-23-2009, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,640,026 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Assimilating means learning and speaking our language out in public when at all possible. I don't care what language someone switches to at home. And don't start with the freedom of speech BS because this is about respect and assimilation, not restricting freedom of speech per se. There is a time and place for everything.

Assimilating would be to keep one's cultural practices inside the home also. Chickens or goats running around someone's backyard in a non-rural neighborhood is unacceptable. Beat up old cars all over one's property and painting ones's house pink and lavender is another example. Women covered with clothing from head to toe including one's face is another example (and I am not talking about those Americans who live in the snowbelt and are covered for warmth either). Loud foreign music blaring away in the middle of the night. These are only a few examples of non-assimilation into our society.

Now as for ethic cultural busiiness districts that is something different. It allows us the experience of enjoying different ethnic foods and other aspects of a foreign culture but as for this in your face cultural diversity out in mainstream America on a daily basis it is disrespectful and a non-assimilation factor. No one is asking someone to forget their cultural roots or even to lose their accent but to have the common sense and respect to speak our language and blend into our society out in public.
The brightly colored houses I can live with---------Art Deco Miami is that way. And even the chickens do not bother me.

Loud music OTOH; foreign or not, especially that amplified bass is irritating
 
Old 08-23-2009, 11:56 AM
 
Location: san deezy(city heights), ca
36 posts, read 50,335 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Assimilating means learning and speaking our language out in public when at all possible. I don't care what language someone switches to at home. And don't start with the freedom of speech BS because this is about respect and assimilation, not restricting freedom of speech per se. There is a time and place for everything.

Assimilating would be to keep one's cultural practices inside the home also. Chickens or goats running around someone's backyard in a non-rural neighborhood is unacceptable. Beat up old cars all over one's property and painting ones's house pink and lavender is another example. Women covered with clothing from head to toe including one's face is another example (and I am not talking about those Americans who live in the snowbelt and are covered for warmth either). Loud foreign music blaring away in the middle of the night. These are only a few examples of non-assimilation into our society.

Now as for ethic cultural busiiness districts that is something different. It allows us the experience of enjoying different ethnic foods and other aspects of a foreign culture but as for this in your face cultural diversity out in mainstream America on a daily basis it is disrespectful and a non-assimilation factor. No one is asking someone to forget their cultural roots or even to lose their accent but to have the common sense and respect to speak our language and blend into our society out in public.
So, you are entitled to be respected for no other reason than being a "native", Americans/Immigrants who speak another language and practice another culture should hide it out of fear, and only speak it quietly in the safety of their homes?
And you're only okay with "ethnic cultural business districts", as some kind of human petting zoo? Do people of other races and cultures really bother you that much?
What is "mainstream America"?
 
Old 08-23-2009, 03:19 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,621,702 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by genesis09 View Post
What is "mainstream America"?
That was PART of what I was 'getting at'.(see post #131, above ). What, indeed, IS 'mainstream America'? IS there such a concept? Is there a 'mainstream Japan'....or a 'mainstream Italy'?...is there a 'traditional Norwegian culture'?..are there any 'traditional Mexican values'? Is there a 'Thai culture'?. I would imagine most people would say 'yes'.

Is America allowed to have a 'mainstream' culture, or 'mainstream values'..or a 'typically American' way of doing things, or looking at things? Is there 'an American culture'? If so, what ARE these? If not, why not?

Interesting thread...
 
Old 08-23-2009, 03:32 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,621,702 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by genesis09 View Post
So, you are entitled to be respected for no other reason than being a "native",
Interesting way of looking at things. Off the top of your head, can you name any country, (or countries) where the local population does NOT feel entitled to be respected by foreigners or 'newcomers'? Can you name any place, (other than the USA) where 'being a native' is meaningless, and where the 'new arrivals' are free to ignore or to show disrespect for the 'natives', and the natives don't get annoyed? Can you name a country...or a place...where the 'old timers' have no more 'say' in things than the very recent newcomers?

Quite frankly, I can't think of such a place. But I'd be interested in your opinion.
 
Old 08-23-2009, 04:26 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,713,551 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by genesis09 View Post
So, you are entitled to be respected for no other reason than being a "native", Americans/Immigrants who speak another language and practice another culture should hide it out of fear, and only speak it quietly in the safety of their homes?
And you're only okay with "ethnic cultural business districts", as some kind of human petting zoo? Do people of other races and cultures really bother you that much?
What is "mainstream America"?
Yes, I feel that if you are in another country, the citizens and legal residents of that country should be treated with respect and common courtesy. If you are there as a visitor, you should behave like you are a guest in their home. If you have legally relocated and become a new citizen, the 'natives' who have been there alot longer than you have are due a certain amount of deference. This is the way grown ups conduct themselves.
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