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Old 02-07-2009, 08:45 PM
 
706 posts, read 1,316,817 times
Reputation: 308

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
I say: what's in it for the US?
US as in United States - plenty of companies in this country are hiring immigrants, otherwise they won't come here. US as in "us", people like you, the American workers who don't want to compete on a level playing field? Sorry, no more free lunch for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
How is unlimited immigration, which seems to be your end goal, going to benefit America?
Who is "America"? People whose ancestors were here 1000 years? 100? 10? People who choose to come here are no less American than people who got here by accident of birth!


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
[...] We currently have a population in excess of 300 million, do we need more people?
India will be pushing 2,000 million by the end of the century, and on 1/6th the territory of English-speaking North America... China's total economy will be twice that of the United States by the middle of the century. If you care about this nation's place in the world's pecking order (which I don't, but you might), then you should be out there on the border rolling out a red carpet!


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Many of the people who come here now are poorly educated and lacking in any discernible job skills. We already have our very own homegrown pool of unskilled labor, why import tens of millions more?
Without government intervention, the job market would decide who comes and how many. It's the governments that subsidize economically-unsustainable migrations of people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
And the concept of allowing in only people with advance degrees results in a 'brain drain' in their home countries.
Thus is the price of refusing to accept free-market capitalism, at least to the same degree as the more successful countries have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Thailand has a far greater need for Thai physicians than we do.
Thailand, where you get thrown in jail for criticizing the monarchy? You want the U.S. government to turn Thai doctors back and say: "we know the American economy has jobs for you, and we know you want to come here, and we know your country sucks, but, sorry, the geographic accident of birth is paramount, unlike our ancestors who conquered this continent your destiny is to stay in Thailand"... Humbug!


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
How are Third world countries (which is where the majority of these immigrants will come from) ever supposed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps if all their bright, educated citizens leave?
Every country used to be "third world" at one point. Civilization didn't just fall from the sky in some places and not others. All countries that are rich today earned it through some degree of free market capitalism. (And some violent imperialism, but that came later.) Just look at how quickly places like South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore not only have caught up to the "first world" in just one generation, but they're now leapfrogging us for the lead!


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
You are not by any chance a Sociology Major, are you?
Heck no, sociology is for socialists. I'm a "stop stealing from me or I'll blow your friggin' head off" major.


Quote:
Originally Posted by antialphabet View Post
Wikipedia is only a bad source for the people who don't know how to check the footnotes, and can't tell whether or not the sources used to make the article are reputable.
Yup, and it's more convenient than linking to a particular source: just two keystrokes for me. I'm not using hyperlinks to provide bulletproof references (I see this forum as warranting a more casual approach), but to identify pieces of text that are likely to be misunderstood or glazed over unless their specific context is known.

Last edited by Alex Libman; 02-07-2009 at 08:55 PM..
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Old 02-07-2009, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,721,341 times
Reputation: 3785
Alex:

Obviously you are unhappy living here in the USA: perhaps you would be better off living in one of the other countries that you gush over.

Bottom line: 300 million Americans here in the USA is quite adequate; we have learned to control our breeding, it is high time for the Third World nations to achieve ca. 2 children per woman birthrates.
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:12 PM
 
706 posts, read 1,316,817 times
Reputation: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Obviously you are unhappy living here in the USA: perhaps you would be better off living in one of the other countries that you gush over.
USA is a country I have chosen. If the New York metro area wasn't the best place to be for now, then I wouldn't be here. In a few years the advantages of Hong Kong or Singapore will probably surpass it - hope it's the latter because Cantonese is harder on my tongue than Mandarin or Malay...

(Yes, there's always hope the Free State Project will pull off a miracle in New Hampshire, but I wouldn't bank on it.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Bottom line: 300 million Americans here in the USA is quite adequate; we have learned to control our breeding, it is high time for the Third World nations to achieve ca. 2 children per woman birthrates.
Ho boy do you have it backwards! For people who care about the future of humanity, the challenge is to raise developed nations' birth rates, not lower them - and it's just a matter of time before all nations are "developed". America is lucky to be the only major developed nation above the population sustainability threshold, and immigration plays a very large part in that success (i.e. recent immigrants having more babies).

Birth rates are declining all over the world, and there's no telling what will ever halt this decline. The long-term population projections are downright scary. Lower population means less economy of scale, less people creating products and services, less economic growth, and so on. And for a rational person who's not looking forward to bad health and death, economic growth is the only hope of salvation!
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:18 PM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,922,555 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
USA is a country I have chosen. If the New York metro area wasn't the best place to be for now, then I wouldn't be here. In a few years the advantages of Hong Kong or Singapore will probably surpass it - hope it's the latter because Cantonese is harder on my tongue than Mandarin or Malay...

(Yes, there's always hope the Free State Project will pull off a miracle in New Hampshire, but I wouldn't bank on it.)




Ho boy do you have it backwards! For people who care about the future of humanity, the challenge is to raise developed nations' birth rates, not lower them - and it's just a matter of time before all nations are "developed". America is lucky to be the only major developed nation above the population sustainability threshold, and immigration plays a very large part in that success (i.e. recent immigrants having more babies).
If they're such a net benefit why in the hell does Mexico, the country responsible for the majority of illegal alien abundant breeders squatting in this country, driving up taxes, poverty, and crime rates while simultaneously driving down American wages draw up maps and point them in the direction of America?

Even you should be able to figure out the answer to that question, since it is by no means rocket science.

Delusional much?
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Old 02-07-2009, 11:23 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,724,689 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
US as in United States - plenty of companies in this country are hiring immigrants, otherwise they won't come here. US as in "us", people like you, the American workers who don't want to compete on a level playing field? Sorry, no more free lunch for you.
What free lunch are you talking about?

Quote:
Who is "America"? People whose ancestors were here 1000 years? 100? 10? People who choose to come here are no less American than people who got here by accident of birth!
People who have gone through the process to legally become a US citizen are just as American as someone who is born here.
My question was how is unlimited immigration going to benefit America? America equalling the country and it's citizens and legal immigrants at this point in time. How would opening the floodgates benefit the US? Keeping in mind that the majority of the people we would get would be from Third World countries and lacking in education and job skills. ( A middle class family in Germany would be far less likely to tear up roots and head for the US than a family in Zimbabawe, IMO) These will be people who will use a great many social services and benefits yet be able to contribute little to paying for those services. How is this scenario going to benefit our country the average US citizen? And if it is not, why do it?

Quote:
India will be pushing 2,000 million by the end of the century, and on 1/6th the territory of English-speaking North America... China's total economy will be twice that of the United States by the middle of the century. If you care about this nation's place in the world's pecking order (which I don't, but you might), then you should be out there on the border rolling out a red carpet!
Take a good look at a picture of the mega-slums surrounding Mumbai and Kolkata or the overcrowding of the cities of China and tell me that this is something we should strive for. Why participate in the race to overpopulate an already too crowded world? We do not need more children ,we need more opportunities for the ones who are here now.


Quote:
Without government intervention, the job market would decide who comes and how many. It's the governments that subsidize economically-unsustainable migrations of people.

Thus is the price of refusing to accept free-market capitalism, at least to the same degree as the more successful countries have.

Thailand, where you get thrown in jail for criticizing the monarchy? You want the U.S. government to turn Thai doctors back and say: "we know the American economy has jobs for you, and we know you want to come here, and we know your country sucks, but, sorry, the geographic accident of birth is paramount, unlike our ancestors who conquered this continent your destiny is to stay in Thailand"... Humbug!
It is simply not realistic to think that all of the world's poor people can somehow shoehorn themselves into the dozen or so First World countries, which invariably seem to be their destinations. They need to work for changes in their own countries that will allow them to prosper as the people in your examples of Korea and Singapore have. If all of their bright and educated citizens leave and head for greener pastures, how are these countries ever supposed to move up the ladder so their citizens can have a better way of life? The people of Thailand need that MD far more than people here in the US.

Quote:
Every country used to be "third world" at one point. Civilization didn't just fall from the sky in some places and not others. All countries that are rich today earned it through some degree of free market capitalism. (And some violent imperialism, but that came later.) Just look at how quickly places like South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore not only have caught up to the "first world" in just one generation, but they're now leapfrogging us for the lead!
These successful countries should serve as a blueprint for others.

Quote:
Heck no, sociology is for socialists. I'm a "stop stealing from me or I'll blow your friggin' head off" major.
I am an Instructor.
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Old 02-07-2009, 11:46 PM
 
3 posts, read 13,085 times
Reputation: 11
Just to toss some turds in the sandbox here, but as far as I know, anchor babies aren't a constitutionally protected entity. IOW their anchor isn't quite as legal as it would seem. Whether that factors in remains to be seen, probably not. Plain and simple is that they have no right to be here, no right to be demanding rights, should be arrested and deported on sight, and their entire family sent with them. Yeah it's harsh, but effective.
And this La Raza bs is just that, bs. I doubt any of the Mexican flag wavers have any clue as to nuance or complexity. They say "my people" and "my race" and it's always in a context of "as opposed to your people and your race". Melting pot my ass, more like balkanization. I mean seriously, wtf is this brown-pride crap anyways? Pride in what? Skin color? Who cares about your skin color, I sure dont. Yet you make it a point to be tossed in my face constantly, okay then since the prisons now seem to set dictates for the populace at large that is mostly uneducated, over the border and can't read or write English OR Spanish, well they don't seem to get the whole nuance and subtle greys of La Raza and all that entails.
They just hear "mine" and that's that.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,721,341 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
USA is a country I have chosen. If the New York metro area wasn't the best place to be for now, then I wouldn't be here. In a few years the advantages of Hong Kong or Singapore will probably surpass it - hope it's the latter because Cantonese is harder on my tongue than Mandarin or Malay...

(Yes, there's always hope the Free State Project will pull off a miracle in New Hampshire, but I wouldn't bank on it.)




Ho boy do you have it backwards! For people who care about the future of humanity, the challenge is to raise developed nations' birth rates, not lower them - and it's just a matter of time before all nations are "developed". America is lucky to be the only major developed nation above the population sustainability threshold, and immigration plays a very large part in that success (i.e. recent immigrants having more babies).

Birth rates are declining all over the world, and there's no telling what will ever halt this decline. The long-term population projections are downright scary. Lower population means less economy of scale, less people creating products and services, less economic growth, and so on. And for a rational person who's not looking forward to bad health and death, economic growth is the only hope of salvation!
Thank God that birthrates are dropping down towards ZPG levels: whenever there is an excess of births over deaths; one tends to have things like wars, plagues, and general social unrest.
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Old 02-14-2009, 04:35 PM
 
706 posts, read 1,316,817 times
Reputation: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
What free lunch are you talking about?
The free lunch of using government force (i.e. closed borders) to keep out your competition who can do your job better than you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
People who have gone through the process to legally become a US citizen are just as American as someone who is born here.
What "process" did Columbus or Thomas Paine go through?

And like I said, I understand that we can't open the borders wide open overnight - it's the current bureaucracy and limits that I have a problem with. Who in their right mind would go through the risks of being illegal if legal immigration was more accessible?

If an employer recruited you - you may come. If you have a job - you can stay. Dat's it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
My question was how is unlimited immigration going to benefit America?
More workers means faster economic growth, and we won't be buying so many things from China...


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Keeping in mind that the majority of the people we would get would be from Third World countries and lacking in education and job skills.
Shouldn't it be up to the employers to decide who has job skills and who doesn't? And there's a strong demand for the kind of labor "illegal" immigrants have to offer - only government force stands in the way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
These will be people who will use a great many social services and benefits yet be able to contribute little to paying for those services.
For the millionth time - social services shouldn't exist, period. They are the problem, not the immigrants.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Take a good look at a picture of the mega-slums surrounding Mumbai and Kolkata or the overcrowding of the cities of China and tell me that this is something we should strive for.
The economic growth Chinese cities are experiencing are indeed something to strive for. As for the slums of India - they are a consequence of socialism and unemployment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Why participate in the race to overpopulate an already too crowded world?
Economic growth, which freer movement of people and capital would contribute to, has been shown to decrease birth rates in every society where it happened, (in many cases too well - threatening to cut their numbers in half with every generation). It is your "out of sight, out of mind" philosophy that's contributing to unsustainable population growth!

And if population growth is economically sustainable it is a good thing - there is no known limit for how many tens or hundreds of billions, or even trillions, our solar system can support.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
It is simply not realistic to think that all of the world's poor people can somehow shoehorn themselves into the dozen or so First World countries, which invariably seem to be their destinations.
You don't seem to understand that there are natural economic limits to immigration. Why would they spend money to come to a place where there are higher costs of living, no public property to build slums on, and no jobs to be found?


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
They need to work for changes in their own countries that will allow them to prosper as the people in your examples of Korea and Singapore have. If all of their bright and educated citizens leave and head for greener pastures, how are these countries ever supposed to move up the ladder so their citizens can have a better way of life?
We agree that those countries need to reform, but holding a gun to its citizen's heads and keeping them from leaving is not the way to do it. In every example of every country that pulled itself out of poverty in the 20th century, the former expatriates led the way, returning to lead after spending time studying and/or working in a more successful country, most often the United States.
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Old 02-15-2009, 06:49 PM
 
238 posts, read 656,993 times
Reputation: 131
La raza has a political agenda that is unclear for most Americans, but clearly defined among themselves. They are being used by globalist entities to hinder U.S. soveringty, in the name of equality. But unlike slaves from the pre 1860's, we chose to come here on our own. The most pathetic part of this political group is that in their countries of origin, they would not be able to openly voice their agenda. Obviously, illigal immigration breaks the statues of Federal Law, but it seems that is ok to break the law as long as you're minority? So much appeasement makes me sick. But what makes me even more sick are the fool Latinos that buy into it, especially anchor babies who have NO IDEA of what's really goin' on.

As a South American myself, I hate the ignorant way these people have portrayed their political agenda. They have been politically hijacked, and they don't even know it. Anyone with three inches of common sense will know that if I stay in your house as a guest. I must abide by the rules of the host, I must respect the property of the host, and ultimately understand that peace will be upon the way I adapt to the host's way of living. How is this any different from going to a foreign country?

Last but not least, I'm glad that groups like "You Don't Speak For Me" are gaining momentum because there are millions of Hispanics that understand the severity of this problem. Turning America, which in my opinion is the last safe heaven, into a third world nation is in detriment of our own future. I believe that groups like La Raza should project that energy towards fixing the mess in Latin America rather than trying to fix what's not broken.
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Old 02-15-2009, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,721,341 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazonas View Post
La raza has a political agenda that is unclear for most Americans, but clearly defined among themselves. They are being used by globalist entities to hinder U.S. soveringty, in the name of equality. But unlike slaves from the pre 1860's, we chose to come here on our own. The most pathetic part of this political group is that in their countries of origin, they would not be able to openly voice their agenda. Obviously, illigal immigration breaks the statues of Federal Law, but it seems that is ok to break the law as long as you're minority? So much appeasement makes me sick. But what makes me even more sick are the fool Latinos that buy into it, especially anchor babies who have NO IDEA of what's really goin' on.

As a South American myself, I hate the ignorant way these people have portrayed their political agenda. They have been politically hijacked, and they don't even know it. Anyone with three inches of common sense will know that if I stay in your house as a guest. I must abide by the rules of the host, I must respect the property of the host, and ultimately understand that peace will be upon the way I adapt to the host's way of living. How is this any different from going to a foreign country?

Last but not least, I'm glad that groups like "You Don't Speak For Me" are gaining momentum because there are millions of Hispanics that understand the severity of this problem. Turning America, which in my opinion is the last safe heaven, into a third world nation is in detriment of our own future. I believe that groups like La Raza should project that energy towards fixing the mess in Latin America rather than trying to fix what's not broken.
Thank for your kind words. We need more 'Hispanic' people to speak out against the La Raza/MEChA types who basically 'pimp' the Latino community for their own sickening agenda.
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