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Old 07-27-2007, 08:58 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
yes you are right on both accounts but allow me to offer another senerio.carry me...and at the end of the day...we all came out even...we accomplished a job as a team....
are manditory for their jobs.
.
I'm going to tell you right up front, this all causes a bit of a chip on the American's shoulder, b/c he didn't get those breaks...sounds maybe kindergarden, but it's not fair....what you've done is created a monster, meaning....hate..resentment...unfair privilages for people who aren't humble enough to feel guilty about being here...so, yanno, yes, we're wrong for not enforcing the law...first and foremost
but...on the other hand, to abuse a system is just as wrong. Go in any other country and do the same and see what happens.

Does that make sense?
Your letter is hard to argue with, and I share many of your concerns--however, if you're looking for reassurance, I just can't give you much. You're getting "screwed", and you're being asked to take on the blame, and pay the price for something you didn't do. You've played a game in good faith, done all the right things, and now are being told that the rules have changed. Your resentment and sense of betrayal are perfectly justified, and anyone in the world would feel the same, were he in your shoes.
You've hit a nerve with me regarding the "guilt" you say you're not seeing. That's my most frequent topic- the incompatibilty of cultures when they clash. My position is (and I think I'm correct) that the traditional culture of the US is a very rare thing in the context of the world. It is based on the beliefs of a small, not-too-popular group of English puritans, and it has the very rare capacity to demand "guilt" of its members. All cultures throughout the world, including ours, are capable of great wrongs and misdeeds toward their fellow man; but very few cultures react by "feeling guilty" about it, in order to improve. If you're looking for "guilt" in the immigrants, I'm afraid you won't find it, in the way that we in the US experience it. It just isn't in most cultures' experience that they should feel a collective guilt---that is one of the main misunderstandings involved in why I say true "multiculturalism" just can not work. It has nothing to do with race; another culture is just a whole different way of looking at life, with a whole different set of rules, and a different sense of "fair" and "unfair".... these differences work OK at a distance, but not too well in close proximity. A nation needs a common culture, and the large majority of the world's nations recognize this fact. Two or six or 12 cultures in one country just aren't going to last long. Sorry to sound negative....
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Old 07-27-2007, 09:51 PM
 
25,455 posts, read 23,273,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Your letter is hard to argue with, and I share many of your concerns--however, if you're looking for reassurance, I just can't give you much. You're getting "screwed", and you're being asked to take on the blame, and pay the price for something you didn't do. You've played a game in good faith, done all the right things, and now are being told that the rules have changed. Your resentment and sense of betrayal are perfectly justified, and anyone in the world would feel the same, were he in your shoes.
You've hit a nerve with me regarding the "guilt" you say you're not seeing. That's my most frequent topic- the incompatibilty of cultures when they clash. My position is (and I think I'm correct) that the traditional culture of the US is a very rare thing in the context of the world. It is based on the beliefs of a small, not-too-popular group of English puritans, and it has the very rare capacity to demand "guilt" of its members. All cultures throughout the world, including ours, are capable of great wrongs and misdeeds toward their fellow man; but very few cultures react by "feeling guilty" about it, in order to improve. If you're looking for "guilt" in the immigrants, I'm afraid you won't find it, in the way that we in the US experience it. It just isn't in most cultures' experience that they should feel a collective guilt---that is one of the main misunderstandings involved in why I say true "multiculturalism" just can not work. It has nothing to do with race; another culture is just a whole different way of looking at life, with a whole different set of rules, and a different sense of "fair" and "unfair".... these differences work OK at a distance, but not too well in close proximity. A nation needs a common culture, and the large majority of the world's nations recognize this fact. Two or six or 12 cultures in one country just aren't going to last long. Sorry to sound negative....
no, no, no, please don't feel bad....it's the way things are, and it makes me so sad...partly b/c I do feel guilty for feeling like this against another human being...candidly, it doesn't feel right...for me...and yet, I can see the other side as well...it is a deeply emotional stuggle for me, and I don't like who I've become b/c of it and b/c of other situations I'm presently dealing with....I suppose, we'll just have to wait and see where the ball bounces...in the meantime...big hugs for your explaination.\ and the time you've taken to read and understand..you have helped....thank you
creme
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Old 07-27-2007, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 89,615 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
I've worked all my life very hard, since I was 13 years old. I never expected any hand outs, I did what I had to do, to raise my son single, even if that meant working 2 and 3 jobs. I paid my taxes and still do...I learned the language, I wanted to be liked and in the same, wanted to respect the laws. I didn't expect anything I didn't work for...and that included medical care. When I was little, my mom was in the hospital 3 times in one year...guess what, she paid every red cent off, she worked two jobs and raised me single. Point being...after a while, money is taken out of our pockets to provide for illegal immigrants that aren't doing anything to fit in. They aren't even feeling guilty, which I can't for the life of me understand? They feel they deserve this...and here I am...worked hard, darn hard, I'm a woman, and at one point in my life, I built roads, laid blacktop, pipe, jack hammered, and luted blacktop...tested concrete, I put down stone grated it...and was the only woman in my union at the time. I jackhammered, tamped...that equipment was darn heavy....and I was 5'8' 120 lbs. so that equipment was very heavy....but I did it, cause the money was there...good money...and the fellas treated me with much respect b/c I didn't expect them to carry me or lift the jackhammer that I was using all day, on the truck at the end of the day.

I later went into the office and became an office manger...get my point?
I worked hard and didn't expect anyone to carry me...and at the end of the day...we all came out even...we accomplished a job as a team....
I do get the point, and I recognize that you did the right and honest thing, not to say plucky. Unfortunately, part of the Mexican idiosyncrasy is precisely the dependence upon government handouts and the tranza, or cheat; this has diverse and deeply-rooted reasons that basically date back to 1521, when the conquest of Mexico was consummated. The clash of cultures was devastating in many ways, the worst of which was the enslavement of the indigenous peoples by the conquering Spaniards. Since then, the Spaniards, and later on their descendants—the Criollos—became the de facto rulers of Mexico, and an unofficial, but very real, caste system was instituted, according to which, Europeans were on top of the social pyramid, the entire spectrum of Mestizos in the middle, and the indigenous peoples at the bottom. This brought about an uneducated, submissive and completely dependant lower social class. Moreover, I believe that these circumstances exacerbated the corrupt and greedy ways passed on to us by the Spaniards. So, in a nutshell, there you have why many modern Mexicans behave the way they do. I must stress that many behave that way—not all. I believe that, as a society, we Mexicans are waking up to the fact that corruption leads nowhere and that it must be eradicated from our lifestyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Its not the nationality, the culture, it's the downright boldness and non caring way, illegals think, they should get everything for nothin. Now, another thing...as you very well know, they own 2 and 3 surnames, so guess what, they also have learned to abuse the system an have 2 and 3 social security cards...therefore, cheating the system...and to top it off, as you well know, they don't pay taxes, they get to vote???? What is that?

Now, b/c they can't speak english...everything must be printed in Spanish, road signs right down to how to put together your brand new blender.
They can't read, so they can't obtain a legal license, nor purchase car insurance, cus they can't take the test. But...a police officer may not ask if they are illegal??????????????????????????????????????????
American immigration law definitely must be changed to eliminate all that nonsense, and, if there is a real need for cheaper foreign labor, guest worker programs should be installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Now, talk about a strain on our systems....our teaches now must speak both english and spanish and maybe even russian in the class rooms...therefore, they're paying more b/c now those languages are manditory for their jobs.

My girlfriends little girl was overwhelmed b/c she came home crying saying she has to learn to count to 100 and speak spanish. Now, we're taking time out of a students ciriculum to teach another language when they could be learning about history or another important subject.
I don’t think it’s so bad for kids—especially in border states—to take Spanish courses in school; knowing a second language is always desirable, and Spanish is spoken by just about every other country in the American Continent—not including a few, like Brazil or Canada. In my opinion, if every kid in the southwestern United States was fully bilingual, and shared Spanish as a common second language, it could be very beneficial for the economic future of Latin American countries and for the future relations between Latin America and the United States. Certainly there is at least another subject matter that can be spared to include learning a second language. Just my two centavos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
yes, we're wrong for not enforcing the law...first and foremost but...on the other hand, to abuse a system is just as wrong.
I agree completely. The immigrants are wrong for abusing the system, small business and big business are wrong for hiring them so they can abuse the system, Uncle Sam is wrong for turning a blind eye to all of this, and the Mexican government is wrong for taking the easy road. As you well say, a monster has been created, and a comprehensive solution must be applied, but it needs to be fair for all parts, especially the Mexican and the American people.
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Old 07-27-2007, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 89,615 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Interesting observations---and the "arrogant and condescending" part particularly hits a nerve. Anyone has only to look at some of our most cherished old classic movies to be brought face-to-face with the plain fact that "we" (and our vicarious movie heroes) certainly had a relationship with "the natives" that ranged from an amused sense of their childishness, to the fear that they'd suddenly erupt in a furious "blood bath"('the natives are restless')--and only the clever, resourceful Yank, by using all his wits, could "put them in their place", or at least, "satisfy their leaders", and bring the danger to an end. Whether it was the Indians in the west, lusting after "firewater" and scalps; the corrupt, vain, and inefficient military dictators of Latin America (who only paused in their depredations long enough for a "fiesta")--to the un-named "ooga-booga" cannibals of some vaguely-understood tropical island, preparing to dine on a meal of unfortunate shipwrecked sailors (who finally got out of it by using their "wits"), these images traveled all over the world, and like it or not, they continue to "haunt" us to this day---Intentional or not, it reflects a deep insensitivity whose time has now passed, and these images will be a long time in the minds of many people around the world.
As far as America "stepping" on people, this too is mostly a matter of simply not taking other nations into account- It's not that we DISLIKED them, as much as the fact that their feelings simply didn't count. Sooner or later, they'd THANK us for what we did, just like misbehaving children might.
Like it or not, this was a large part in our behavior in the past. I STILL say our ability to now feel "guilty" about it does speak well of us-and that that guilt will not always be reciprocated from others who may have shared in the blame. Nevertheless, anyone who is aware of how "spring-breakers" can act when away from home, or US Navy sailors sometimes behave on "liberty", realizes that our position in the world's spotlight does carry many burdens.
In closing, I'd say the situation is exacerbated by the present White House; for one reason or another, this group just seems unable to do much of ANYTHING, right or wrong, without ANNOYING just about everyone, at home or abroad. Even the Decider himself seems to recognize that his personality could be a factor in his ratings. Combine this with the air of secrecy and arrogance, and it's little wonder that our image is "on the skids" just now.....Hopefully, things will improve...
These are all very interesting observations, and very accurate, I believe.
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Old 07-28-2007, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico
180 posts, read 89,615 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
My position is (and I think I'm correct) that the traditional culture of the US is a very rare thing in the context of the world. It is based on the beliefs of a small, not-too-popular group of English puritans, and it has the very rare capacity to demand "guilt" of its members. All cultures throughout the world, including ours, are capable of great wrongs and misdeeds toward their fellow man; but very few cultures react by "feeling guilty" about it, in order to improve. If you're looking for "guilt" in the immigrants, I'm afraid you won't find it, in the way that we in the US experience it. It just isn't in most cultures' experience that they should feel a collective guilt---that is one of the main misunderstandings involved in why I say true "multiculturalism" just can not work. It has nothing to do with race; another culture is just a whole different way of looking at life, with a whole different set of rules, and a different sense of "fair" and "unfair".... these differences work OK at a distance, but not too well in close proximity. A nation needs a common culture, and the large majority of the world's nations recognize this fact. Two or six or 12 cultures in one country just aren't going to last long. Sorry to sound negative....
Unfortunately, some things can’t be sugarcoated, MacMeal. Maybe a nation does need a common culture, but not necessarily common customs... What I mean by this is that common values like democracy, free speech, honesty and the like should be vigorously instilled and protected, and others that don’t clash with these could be left in peace, so that we could still have certain diversity, which is always a healthy thing.

Last edited by MexicanGuy; 07-28-2007 at 12:17 AM..
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Old 07-28-2007, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Occupied Territory
354 posts, read 224,915 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicanGuy View Post
I think that there are two principal reasons that can explain the hatred that many around the world harbor towards Americans: the first is that many people envy America; and the second is that, throughout its history, America has wronged many nations.

The first reason is completely out of line, and there’s not much that can be done about it—except not to keep fueling it by being arrogant and condescending with people of other nations, as many Americans tend to be. As for the second reason, well, it’s evident that to turn that around America would need to stop trampling on other nations to reach its objectives; however, and in all fairness, it should be emphasized that many times America has also done genuine good for other countries, but there seems to be less and less of that lately.

True but what do we do about the arrogant and condescending Mexicans and other illegals that keep coming here, all without permission?

I have lived in 4 different countries and 36 different states and never had any problem. Yes, some Americans can be arrogant, just like the majority of illehals that come to this country, arrogant as all get out. Whether you like it or not, America has done more good than harm to most nations, especially Mexico. Our country has done harm, but then so has Mexico and most other countries. There is no one without blame in this argument but I tire of you Mexicans always talking about our arrogance, when in fact, you as a people are much more arrogant than the majority of the American people.
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Old 07-28-2007, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Occupied Territory
354 posts, read 224,915 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Interesting observations---and the "arrogant and condescending" part particularly hits a nerve. Anyone has only to look at some of our most cherished old classic movies to be brought face-to-face with the plain fact that "we" (and our vicarious movie heroes) certainly had a relationship with "the natives" that ranged from an amused sense of their childishness, to the fear that they'd suddenly erupt in a furious "blood bath"('the natives are restless')--and only the clever, resourceful Yank, by using all his wits, could "put them in their place", or at least, "satisfy their leaders", and bring the danger to an end. Whether it was the Indians in the west, lusting after "firewater" and scalps; the corrupt, vain, and inefficient military dictators of Latin America (who only paused in their depredations long enough for a "fiesta")--to the un-named "ooga-booga" cannibals of some vaguely-understood tropical island, preparing to dine on a meal of unfortunate shipwrecked sailors (who finally got out of it by using their "wits"), these images traveled all over the world, and like it or not, they continue to "haunt" us to this day---Intentional or not, it reflects a deep insensitivity whose time has now passed, and these images will be a long time in the minds of many people around the world.
As far as America "stepping" on people, this too is mostly a matter of simply not taking other nations into account- It's not that we DISLIKED them, as much as the fact that their feelings simply didn't count. Sooner or later, they'd THANK us for what we did, just like misbehaving children might.
Like it or not, this was a large part in our behavior in the past. I STILL say our ability to now feel "guilty" about it does speak well of us-and that that guilt will not always be reciprocated from others who may have shared in the blame. Nevertheless, anyone who is aware of how "spring-breakers" can act when away from home, or US Navy sailors sometimes behave on "liberty", realizes that our position in the world's spotlight does carry many burdens.
In closing, I'd say the situation is exacerbated by the present White House; for one reason or another, this group just seems unable to do much of ANYTHING, right or wrong, without ANNOYING just about everyone, at home or abroad. Even the Decider himself seems to recognize that his personality could be a factor in his ratings. Combine this with the air of secrecy and arrogance, and it's little wonder that our image is "on the skids" just now.....Hopefully, things will improve...
I have seen other Americans in other countries and let me tell you that many do in fact like theyr are the most important person on the planet. That always makes me sick. What really makes me sick is how Americans thinks that everone in all countries should speak English that they happen to visit. The same, of course, can be said about the Spanish speaking illegals that come here and expect America to speak their language instead of assimilating, which of course, is exactly what has been happening for years now.

Bush is an a** and we all know it, but then you can thank those idiot who voted him in...TWICE, no less. Not that the other idiot woukld have been any better at all. It is time the people of this country stop playing into the idiot card of partisan politics and stop voting for the lesser of two evils and start voting with their conscience. The Democrats and the Republicans are two sides of the same coin. Basically, we are nothing bit a one party country and not much better than Mexico whenh it comes to the corruption that abounds here.
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Old 07-28-2007, 09:54 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
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Originally Posted by MexicanGuy View Post
Unfortunately, some things can’t be sugarcoated, MacMeal. Maybe a nation does need a common culture, but not necessarily common customs... What I mean by this is that common values like democracy, free speech, honesty and the like should be vigorously instilled and protected, and others that don’t clash with these could be left in peace, so that we could still have certain diversity, which is always a healthy thing.
Ok, MexicanGuy, I have enough "diversity" in my heart that I'll let your argument stand..--good points. However, you didn't address my "societal guilt" angle--I still think this is a potent force in gringo culture, which enables a sort of self-critical examination of "our" motives that's quite rare in the world. This forum is a good example--lots and lots of "gringo guilt" is floating around here, whatever else you can say.
I don't believe there's a similar guilt in most other cultures, regardless of their sordid pasts (or even their sordid PRESENT)--as an example, several Mexican authors have written along the themes of "We Mexicans are our own worst enemies," and otherwise criticizing their own culture. However, this is essentially a criticism of how Mexicans treat each other---very little, if anything, is said about how Mexicans treat foreigners. This holds true in the majority of the world's cultures. Mexico gets the "spotlight" only because it's right HERE...that's simple geography. If the US were next door to China, or Russia, or India, then THOSE groups would be coming in, clashing with the gringos, and THEY would be the subject of this forum...
Enjoyed hearing your post as always...
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Old 07-28-2007, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Occupied Territory
354 posts, read 224,915 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicanGuy View Post
I don’t think it’s so bad for kids—especially in border states—to take Spanish courses in school; knowing a second language is always desirable, and Spanish is spoken by just about every other country in the American Continent—not including a few, like Brazil or Canada. In my opinion, if every kid in the southwestern United States was fully bilingual, and shared Spanish as a common second language, it could be very beneficial for the economic future of Latin American countries and for the future relations between Latin America and the United States. Certainly there is at least another subject matter that can be spared to include learning a second language. Just my two centavos.
I totally agree but then we would have all of theose monolingual Mexicans that refuse to learn English. And YES, there are certainly a number of them that aboslutely refuse to learn our language. I can speak Spanish and one other languyage, other than English that is, fluently. I am just sick and tired of Mexicans telling any American how it would behoov e them to speak Spanish, when we know it would, but at the same time refuse to assimilate into our culture instead of expecting and DEMANDING that we assimilate into their culture.
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:02 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicanGuy View Post
I do get the point, and I recognize that you did the right and honest thing, not to say plucky. Unfortunately, part of the Mexican idiosyncrasy is precisely the dependence upon government handouts and the tranza, or cheat; this has diverse and deeply-rooted reasons that basically date back to 1521, when the conquest of Mexico was consummated. The clash of cultures was devastating in many ways, the worst of which was the enslavement of the indigenous peoples by the conquering Spaniards. Since then, the Spaniards, and later on their descendants—the Criollos—became the de facto rulers of Mexico, and an unofficial, but very real, caste system was instituted, according to which, Europeans were on top of the social pyramid, the entire spectrum of Mestizos in the middle, and the indigenous peoples at the bottom. This brought about an uneducated, submissive and completely dependant lower social class. Moreover, I believe that these circumstances exacerbated the corrupt and greedy ways passed on to us by the Spaniards. So, in a nutshell, there you have why many modern Mexicans behave the way they do. I must stress that many behave that way—not all. I believe that, as a society, we Mexicans are waking up to the fact that corruption leads nowhere and that it must be eradicated from our lifestyle.



American immigration law definitely must be changed to eliminate all that nonsense, and, if there is a real need for cheaper foreign labor, guest worker programs should be installed.



I don’t think it’s so bad for kids—especially in border states—to take Spanish courses in school; knowing a second language is always desirable, and Spanish is spoken by just about every other country in the American Continent—not including a few, like Brazil or Canada. In my opinion, if every kid in the southwestern United States was fully bilingual, and shared Spanish as a common second language, it could be very beneficial for the economic future of Latin American countries and for the future relations between Latin America and the United States. Certainly there is at least another subject matter that can be spared to include learning a second language. Just my two centavos.



I agree completely. The immigrants are wrong for abusing the system, small business and big business are wrong for hiring them so they can abuse the system, Uncle Sam is wrong for turning a blind eye to all of this, and the Mexican government is wrong for taking the easy road. As you well say, a monster has been created, and a comprehensive solution must be applied, but it needs to be fair for all parts, especially the Mexican and the American people.
Very well-presented, and a very accurate summary of Mexican history as I understand it....I hope others will take the time to read this over..3 cheers for an interesting post..
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